D&D (2024) One D&D Survey Feedback: Weapon Mastery Spectacular; Warlock and Wizard Mixed Reactions

Jeremy Crawford discusses the results of the Packet 5 Survey:

• Weapon Mastery at 80% approval, and all options except for Flex scored similarly. Crawford says that Flex is mathematically one of the most powerful properties, but will need some attention because people didn't feel like it was. This feature is in the 2024 PHB for 6 Classes, guaranteed at this point.
• Barbarian scored well, particularly the individual features, average satisfaction of 80% for each feature. Beserker got 84% satisfaction, while the 2014 Beserker in the 2020 Big Class Survey got 29% satisfaction.
• Fighter received well, overall 75% satisfaction. Champion scored 54% in the Big Class Survey, but this new one got 74%.
• Sorcerer in the Big Class Survey got 60%, this UA Sorcerer got 72%. Lots of enthusiasm for the Metamagic revisions. Careful Spell got 92% satisfaction. Twin Spell was the exception, at 60%. Draconic Sorcerer got 73%, new Dragon Wings feature was not well received but will be fixed back to being on all the time by the return to 2014 Aubclass progression.
• Class specific Spell lists are back in UA 7 coming soon, the unified Spell lists are out.
• Warlock feedback reflected mixed feelings in the player base. Pact magic is coming back in next iteration. Next Warlock will be more like 2014, Mystic Arcanum will be a core feature, but will still see some adjustments based on feedback to allow for more frequent use of Spells. Eldritch Invocations were well received. Crawford felt it was a good test, because they learned what players felt. They found the idiosyncracy of the Warlock is exactly what people like about it, so theybare keeping it distinct. Next version will get even more Eldritch Invocation options.
• Wizard got a mixed reception. Biggest problem people had was wanting a Wizard specific Spell list, not a shared Arcane list that made the Wizard less distinct. Evoker well received.

 

[Charlaquin]

more noting a trend

Well don’t be so coy about it. What trend are you noting, and what does it have to do with roller skates?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hard for me to say, but that’s probably a pretty accurate assessment.

As I said to someone else, if you know you’re likely to be attacked mid-rest, such as if you’re in an area full of wandering monsters or being pursued by enemies with murderous intent, then that’s going to affect the calculus. In such a situation, it may be wiser to risk letting a few spell slots go to waste than to risk being caught without any spell slots in the middle of the night.

If you know it’s the last encounter of the day, why not use that significant firepower? You’ll get those spell slots back anyway, use them while the getting is good! Again, unless you have reason to suspect it won’t actually be the last encounter of the day (such as if being attacked in the night is a likely possibility).

Well, sure! If you have that opportunity, it may well be worth letting those last 10-30% of your resources go to waste rather than risk entering that fight at a reduced capacity. That’s a valid strategic sacrifice.

Of course, miscalculating is always a potential risk in a resource management game. But just because perfectly efficient resource planning is likely unattainable doesn’t mean it shouldn’t still be a goal to strive for. “A spell slot unspent is a spell slot wasted” doesn’t mean “don’t ever leave any spell slots unspent.” It just means realize that there is a real cost to leaving spell slots unspent, and take that cost into consideration when deciding when to use your spell slots vs. when to save them.

So the thing we keep coming back to is this: I don’t agree that it’s a sacrifice, or that you are losing literally anything at all, by not using all of you long rest limited abilities every adventuring day. I don’t want the DM to run the game such that we are encouraged to reliably have 6+ encounters, either, though, and I know some folks here do like that gameplay.

But I don’t even look at how many slots are left when I long rest. I just reset them when the long rest is over.

And it just feels weird to me, both in terms of immersion and storytelling, to always be using the most firepower I think I safely can, whether it’s needful or not. Because it’s weird to go 100% vein-popping rage every time you need to smack someone, and it’d be weird to use a 6th level spell against enemies that can be taken out with swords and a few more turns of combat, or with a good intimidation check to get them to flee because their captain is dead, or whatever.

Like if I use a level 6 spell to kill guards that are there to slow us down, or to intimidate a larger group of guards to let us pass, that’s well spent. If I do it just to make sure I used that spell slot…that’s a huge waste.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

My position is simple: if you run out of spell slots before the end of the day, you should probably consider being a bit more careful with them. If you have spell slots left over at the end of the day, you should probably consider being a bit more free with them. Balancing between those is what the resource management challenge is all about.

That sounds like an incredible amount of stress and anxiety. Whether I run out of slots or have slots left over, I should have done it differently. Which means I did it wrong.

Do you always feel like this when playing a spellcaster? Honest question: Are you ok? This mindset sounds like a nightmare for my neurodivergent brain, which is probably why I'm debating so hard against it.

 

[Charlaquin]

That sounds like an incredible amount of stress and anxiety. Whether I run out of slots or have slots left over, I should have done it differently.

Well, I would contend that if you run out of slots at precisely the right time, then you shouldn’t have done it differently. But generally, yeah. Perfect resource efficiency is an ideal to be strived towards, not a goal that can necessarily be achieved. There’s always room for improvement, as with all things not just in D&D but in life.

Which means I did it wrong.

It’s not really the kind of thing that has a right and wrong. You do the best you can, you reflect on what you could have done better, and you try to put that into practice moving forward. In that way “your best” is always improving.

Do you always feel like this when playing a spellcaster? Honest question: Are you ok? This mindset sounds like a nightmare for my neurodivergent brain, which is probably why I'm debating so hard against it.

Haha I’m fine, yeah. Could be an ADHD (which I have) vs. autism (which I think I remember you saying you have? Apologies if I’m misremembering) thing. Us folks with ADHD are strongly driven to seek dopamine, which can express itself in the form of hyper-competitiveness. It can also express itself in the form of hyper-focus on puzzle-solving. Competing with myself to find the most optimized solution I can to the resource management puzzle gives my brain the feel-good juice!

That said, I do generally prefer classes that manage resources on a shorter timescale than a whole adventuring day. I’ll pick a warlock or rogue over a Wizard or sorcerer any day.

 

[Incenjucar]

That sounds like an incredible amount of stress and anxiety. Whether I run out of slots or have slots left over, I should have done it differently. Which means I did it wrong.

Do you always feel like this when playing a spellcaster? Honest question: Are you ok? This mindset sounds like a nightmare for my neurodivergent brain, which is probably why I'm debating so hard against it.

It's bog standard resource maximization of utility.

 

[mamba]

To save these dozen options we're going to nuke the spell system or design nonmagical plot cards that do the same kind of things as spells?

I’d say fix rather than nuke, but I agree, it won’t be happening, unfortunately…

 

[Ashrym]

In which case, the spellcasters will be wont to let martial characters take care of as much as possible, and hold their Spell slots carefully. Just in case.

Which is what happens. The difference between 5e and older editions pre 4e is that the rituals and at-will abilities such as cantrips allow spell casters to continue to be spell casters in the absence spamming spell slots. Spell casters have spells for when they need them if they conserve those spells for just in case and are incentivized to give deference to martial characters or actions.

The use of a spell slot becomes an important choice without taking away the option to use a spell.

If you only consider the needs of the current situation when deciding whether or not to use spell slots, you’re liable to run out long before needing to rest.

That's why those spell casters might choose not to use that spell slot and use a cantrip or other ability instead. It is possible to run out long before if a player isn't cautious and it is possible to have remaining slots with nothing to use them on when it's time to rest.

I agree that an unspent slot might be a wasted slot, but that doesn't change the fact that when it's time to rest there might not be a way to use that slot. It's also not a bad idea to have remaining slots to use just in case that rest is interrupted. Someone who uses all their slots before resting with the expectation that they will have a full load after is risking having zero slots the next day or to use when attacked in the night.

Back on topic....

Since the players don't always know what they'll be doing or encountering and the Wizard is the ultimate utility class it stands to reason that anytime the wizard doesn't know what they'll be facing they'll make choices that will simply not be useful. Nothing about the wizard class was built around the assumption that resources are meant to be spent 100 percent every game day. does that mean if a rogue doesn't use all thier abilities they were wasted? Strange and largely ineffective way of measuring utility and effectiveness of a class. People aren't cars that you can just put gas in and drive 200 miles. Any unexpected events or plot turns can make a wizard's choices for the day completely useless. That's not a resource issue.

I disagree that the wizard is the ultimate utility class because it seems based on the opinion that magic solves everything. Ability checks still matter and that rogue class you mentioned can have a lot of fun with reliable talent, bards can mix magic or ability checks to be decent in both areas, and druids can do quite a bit just with wild shape. Wizards have a strong utility characteristic but "ultimate" seems to imply capability much farther ahead of other choices.

With the changes in the 5e24ua's I would consider warlocks a strong contender based on CHA instead of INT with spell casting, rituals, and invocations. Lessons of the First Ones has a lot of potential in that regard, and Pact of the Tome allows for swapping out 2 rituals and 3 cantrips every short rest.

 

[tetrasodium]

Which is what happens. The difference between 5e and older editions pre 4e is that the rituals and at-will abilities such as cantrips allow spell casters to continue to be spell casters in the absence spamming spell slots. Spell casters have spells for when they need them if they conserve those spells for just in case and are incentivized to give deference to martial characters or actions.

The use of a spell slot becomes an important choice without taking away the option to use a spell.

That's why those spell casters might choose not to use that spell slot and use a cantrip or other ability instead. It is possible to run out long before if a player isn't cautious and it is possible to have remaining slots with nothing to use them on when it's time to rest.

I agree that an unspent slot might be a wasted slot, but that doesn't change the fact that when it's time to rest there might not be a way to use that slot. It's also not a bad idea to have remaining slots to use just in case that rest is interrupted. Someone who uses all their slots before resting with the expectation that they will have a full load after is risking having zero slots the next day or to use when attacked in the night.

Back on topic....

I disagree that the wizard is the ultimate utility class because it seems based on the opinion that magic solves everything. Ability checks still matter and that rogue class you mentioned can have a lot of fun with reliable talent, bards can mix magic or ability checks to be decent in both areas, and druids can do quite a bit just with wild shape. Wizards have a strong utility characteristic but "ultimate" seems to imply capability much farther ahead of other choices.

With the changes in the 5e24ua's I would consider warlocks a strong contender based on CHA instead of INT with spell casting, rituals, and invocations. Lessons of the First Ones has a lot of potential in that regard, and Pact of the Tome allows for swapping out 2 rituals and 3 cantrips every short rest.

This do much. Being charisma based gives warlocks (and sorcerer) freedom to dominate in social stuff while being SAD in one of the most valuable attributes means that dex and con with d8 hit die are easily good enough for hp+any dex based skills they want to add on top of charisma based social skills.


With all of that said and done warlocks are still more than good enough at any int based skills they might choose to add (even with 8 int)or attempt thanks to 5e's extreme skill consolidation and the fact that a lot of int based skill checks have plot armor in the form of being a vehicle for the gm to deliver information they will probably need to find some other way to deliver if missed too completely. You could say investigate needs good checks to find treasure not exposed by the gm's plot needs sometimes, but 5e is there to rescue the 8 int PC by eliminating the need for things like magic item churn or even a single magic item from one to twenty.

Wizard very much does not have the old utility it's still getting knocked for without the old slot progression benefits to skill gains from int and a skill system with too many skills for any one PC to trivially feel like they have full marks in whatever niche(s) they choose to dabble in.

 

[Charlaquin]

That's why those spell casters might choose not to use that spell slot and use a cantrip or other ability instead. It is possible to run out long before if a player isn't cautious and it is possible to have remaining slots with nothing to use them on when it's time to rest.

Indeed.

I agree that an unspent slot might be a wasted slot, but that doesn't change the fact that when it's time to rest there might not be a way to use that slot.

Well, yeah, by then it’s probably too late to spend any spell slots you’re still holding on to. Which is exactly why it’s smart play not to cling too tightly to those spell slots. Spend them when you have a good opportunity to do so, save them when you don’t.

It's also not a bad idea to have remaining slots to use just in case that rest is interrupted. Someone who uses all their slots before resting with the expectation that they will have a full load after is risking having zero slots the next day or to use when attacked in the night.

Obviously, if you have reason to suspect you might be attacked in the night, such as if you’re resting in a place with lots of wandering monsters or you know your party is being pursued by murderous NPCs, it may be a good idea to keep a few spell slots in case you need them during a mid-rest fight. Either way it’s a risk, you either risk spell slots going to waste or you risk not having any when you need them. You’ve got to weigh the danger of each option against your assessment of how likely that danger is to occur and try to make the best bet you can.