D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Micah Sweet]

Maybe it is the tier that can explicitly transition to "preternatural".

In other words, during levels 1 thru 4, and 5 thru 8, all the spells casters learn how to do are just "normal physics" − this is how the Material Plane works because the Weave is present.

However, from levels 9 thru 12, something different is happening. These individuals are starting to achieve things that "normal" people normally cant.

When at high tiers, both the casters and the martials are do things that are "impossible".

Again, put that principle in the game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A lot of this is veering into the tangential for the sorcerer I think. The big problem is defining what the sorcerer is supposed to be doing. 3e's sorcerer was to allow concepts that the wizard was ill equipped to portray, which honestly is a lot, with a fairly different casting system. 4e made it all about innate magic somehow imbued into the character (Dragon Bloodline, Wild Magic, Mystical Storm Energy, etc). 5e tries to do both, but not very well, with a dash of metamagic. If you want to keep the sorcerer as a separate class, it needs to figure out what it's doing. Whatever that is, it's definitely supernatural however.

Actually, as was said above, you don't have to do anything to keep sorcerer as a class, because it's popularity already assures it a place without further action.

Sad, but true.

 

[Mephista]

Here I'd disagree - but I would say it took years for the 5e sorcerer to get there. They are the "I get my magic from [something else] class and I use it for spells where [something else] isn't books and learning, a patron, nature, or music"

Ish? That's a negative definition - defining the sorcerer by what everything else is not. Which in turn means that its not an identity of its own, but rather "the wizard/warlock shadow."
I'm not a fan of negative defintions like those, not only because its not really giving the sorcerer its own class fantasy, but because it creates a negative space that forcefully limits other classes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It says that the background magic is part of the in-fiction physics, which means that it's possible for a fighter to access that "magical" physics through mundane training. It justifies some sort of supernatural strikes and abilities that can't be countered, dispelled or anti-magicked.

Put that in the fighter class description and I will happily shut up about this. As it is, nothing in the fighter or the rogue (or the human) entries say they are supernatural or magical (outside of the odd subclass), whereas that information is present in the description of every supernatural or magical class. Did the writers of D&D just "forget" to add that to fighter and rogue as well, or is it perhaps missing for a reason? In any case, I will not assume it there when it's clearly stated for everyone else.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why would everything else he does and is suddenly become supernatural just because he gained that ability. Is his 30 movement speed suddenly supernatural? His 4 attacks? No. He's still mundane except for the one ability.

Sure, but that one ability is clearly supernatural. I just want abilities like that called out as such.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Sure, but that one ability is clearly supernatural. I just want abilities like that called out as such.

Why? it is just semantics. It is a magical world with weird crap, there is no clear line between natural and supernatural.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The sorcerer is basically 3 character tropes

1. The Non-Muggle. You have the "Spark". For whatever reason, you can cast magic without learning magic theory nor the involvement of a magical master. Because of this you don't understand magic much itself as a thing but have more reserves than other casters.
2. The Superhero. You were bitten by a radioactive spider, struck by supernatural lightning, or hit with magic radiation. You have a suite of powers based around who you got your powers and have finer control over it that people who use study or use the power from others due to your physical closeness to it.
3. The Monster Mage. You are a descendant of a magical creature or have a magical creature's magic in your blood somehow. It lets you use power like that creature. Usually it's spells

These 3 tropes aren't really the same except for 2 things ..

For the record I think there has only ever been one real attempt in D&D at 3 - and that's the dragonblood. (PF goes all in on sorcerer bloodlines). Instead if I want a monster mage I'm probably going Warlock and to use invocations that fit the magical creature, and have done this with a demon, a "gap year genie", and a baby Great Old One.

#2 is the big one. Elsa has all the ice spells. Harry Dresden knows how to burn stuff and blast stuff but sucks at charms and illusions. Scarlet Witch can twist up your life. Most famous Potterverse wizard has spells or rituals they personally mastered. Natsu knows 20 ways to use dragon fire. Aquaman has all the hydromancy and fish magic. Naruto ninjas all have clan secret jutsu that no clan members can't do without copy magic.

This is the part D&D fails at

Because wizards must have ALL THE SPELLS. Sorcerers are rather given the list of spells and signature spells they need for the trope.

I think you are oversyating things; I think that an Aberrant Mind has enough psychic stuff to make a better Jean Grey than a wizard would. The problem is that two spells per spell level just isn't enough for an intentionally squishy class in the 5e meta. And forget about making Storm; storm sorcery needs a complete rework.

 

[Yaarel]

Maybe by definition, the word "supernatural" means the Weave.

The Weave emanates from nature but is extra in addition to nature, and can override nature.

Oppositely, Martial, Psionic, and Primal are all intrinsic, innate, and natural, despite the capacity to be magically "extraordinary".

 

[Micah Sweet]

Again.

Fencing with light weapons and most attacks were not killing blows.

The D&D warrior is getting 3-4 full kill attacks with greatswords and longbows accurately every 6 seconds.

What makes all those attacks "full kill"? You hit me with solid stick quickly and there's a good chance I'm not going to fight you anymore, whether I'm dead or not. And the game doesn't demand that non-PCs reduced to zero hit points are dead. Its just a practical convenience many people use.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why? it is just semantics. It is a magical world with weird crap, there is no clear line between natural and supernatural.

Isn't there? Like I said, every other class but fighter and rogue is explicitly supernatural or magical. Those two were left out, and I refuse to believe it was an accident.