D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Micah Sweet]

in case anyone's too lazy to do the math here, 1.6 seconds per action would probably be the equivalent of 3.75 (so 3-4) attacks per turn. that means you need to be a level 11-20 fighter in order to effectively fight like a combat trained human being. for context, a level 1 PC can shoot a longbow as fast as a modern skilled archer (i.e. 10 times per minute).

abstraction is weird.

@Minigiant tells us none of those attacks count, for some reason.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But we aren't on Earth. That's my whole point.


Because it is.


Then you are saying everyone who is mundane is limited. Which was my whole argument. If, and only if, you give up mundanity, you can have cool powers. Unless and until you do that, you will forever be chained, weak, incapable. That's the problem. Only the magical are allowed to participate.

Or the supernatural. Just call out those supernatural abilities once you get to a certain level, and you're golden.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not less, different from. And yes, that's the general goal.

The blacksmith whose crafted weapons are artifacts despite her never casting a single spell nor using a single magical ingredient, because the edge she puts on steel exceeds the physical definition of sharpness. The singer, whose voice alone actually beguiles audiences, because music that skillful, that harmonious, compels a response--as when someone bursts out crying at a tragic melody or gasps at the sight of a sublime waterfall. The thief who can take the color of a maiden's eyes, or the name of a famous place, because they have become so skilled at stealing, they can steal immaterial things too.

My term for this is the "transmundane," just as the original term "transfinite" was used for numbers that were greater than any natural number but not absolutely infinite (meaning, they fit into the next-higher-tier of counting, above the natural numbers but below what we now call the "reals"). Likewise, the transmundane covers things greater than any mundane materials, properties, or actions, but not absolutely supernatural. The things that live in the maybe/maybe-not zone, the "no way! ...unless..." space. Which, I freely admit, some of this comes from the fact that I am fully on board for most "Rule of Cool" justifications.

All of those things are supernatural abilities. You don't need spells to be supernatural.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The sorcerer is basically 3 character tropes

1. The Non-Muggle. You have the "Spark". For whatever reason, you can cast magic without learning magic theory nor the involvement of a magical master. Because of this you don't understand magic much itself as a thing but have more reserves than other casters.
2. The Superhero. You were bitten by a radioactive spider, struck by supernatural lightning, or hit with magic radiation. You have a suite of powers based around who you got your powers and have finer control over it that people who use study or use the power from others due to your physical closeness to it.
3. The Monster Mage. You are a descendant of a magical creature or have a magical creature's magic in your blood somehow. It lets you use power like that creature. Usually it's spells

These 3 tropes aren't really the same except for 2 things ..

1) They don't cast spells via their knowledge of mage. They harness their magic and force it out
2) Signature spells and spell lists. These magics typical have a curated list of spells they known and don't learn "new spells". Often they know spell only they are others like they can uses. They just get better versions of their magic as they gain experience.

#2 is the big one. Elsa has all the ice spells. Harry Dresden knows how to burn stuff and blast stuff but sucks at charms and illusions. Scarlet Witch can twist up your life. Most famous Potterverse wizard has spells or rituals they personally mastered. Natsu knows 20 ways to use dragon fire. Aquaman has all the hydromancy and fish magic. Naruto ninjas all have clan secret jutsu that no clan members can't do without copy magic.

This is the part D&D fails at

Because wizards must have ALL THE SPELLS. Sorcerers are rather given the list of spells and signature spells they need for the trope.

Sorcerers and wizards in D&D have (nearly) identical spell lists. That's the real problem. As you say, the sorcerer narratives don't work right without restrictions on what any particular kind of sorcerer can cast.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Isn't there? Like I said, every other class but fighter and rogue is explicitly supernatural or magical. Those two were left out, and I refuse to believe it was an accident.

because they all use secondary power sources, but that doesn't mean fighter and rogue don't use the inherent baseline magic that is literally part of the building blocks of all things in this magic fantasy world.

the world is stated as having a baseline of magic infused into it's very nature in everything in the world, curiously enough, fighters and rouges fall under the perview of 'everything in the world'

 

[Micah Sweet]

because they all use secondary power sources, but that doesn't mean fighter and rogue don't use the inherent baseline magic that is literally part of the building blocks of all things in this magic fantasy world.

the world is stated as having a baseline of magic infused into it's very nature in everything in the world, curiously enough, fighters and rouges fall under the perview of 'everything in the world'

So this "baseline magic" affects the fighter and rogue classes but not anyone else, and for some reason there's no need to mention this baseline magic in reference to the classes it is (from your perspective) clearly affecting? If you're right the sections in question are written terribly.

 

[TwoSix]

.

Isn't there? Like I said, every other class but fighter and rogue is explicitly supernatural or magical. Those two were left out, and I refuse to believe it was an accident.

It was left out because it's better for the designers, and the game as a whole, to leave things vague. If Player A wants a 20th level fighter to be a Special Forces soldier, and Player B wants a 20th level fighter to be Thor, the book doesn't contradict either of them.

These arguments we're having about how a Sorcerer really works, or what supernatural means? They're good for the game.

 

[Yaarel]

Or the supernatural. Just call out those supernatural abilities once you get to a certain level, and you're golden.

I suspect this approach will work well.

Many players stop playing at about level 8, because after that things start to feel less like Tolkien, and start to drift into superhero.

We already have a clear threshold between a level 20 mortal and an level 21 immortal. There is no ambiguity here, Epic is a bright line.

Similarly, there can be a bright line between Tolkien Professional at level 8, and Superhero Master at level 9.


I know 2014 tried to push the threshold to be between levels 10 and 11. But the the defacto "middle tier" of levels 9 thru 12 is so important for many reasons. This the tier when concepts like Batman and Beowulf start to show up. They arent Superman yet, but they arent mundane either. The Superhero genre starts around level 9 (slot 5 spells), and level 13 is a separate genre mainly from the accumulation of high tier features. Level 17 (slot 9 spells) is an other game changer.


In any case, using a level to define a bright line between "mundane" and "extraordinary" is no problem.

 

[Remathilis]

The sorcerer isn't three things. Its three shards and half-ideas all jammed together. There's no point to a "caster but not wizard" just sitting there and taking up word count with nothing else added to it. These are not tropes in their own right. There's no class fantasy, no vibes or story behind them. At best, its its the power point system in the DMG, and the class gets wiped out from existance. And even that's reaching.

Metamagic is not a class either. Its traditionally a feats every caster has access to. The sorcerer is literally stealing the concept from everyone else and making them worse, just to give themselves something special to do. IF you take it away from sorcerer, its not going to be a class. Its going back to being a feat.

A gishy dragon class would ... end up not having anything new ever made after the dragon part is done. And, hells. Druid and barbarian might even do a dragon class better than the sorcerer does. Meanwhile.... we have at least three dwarfy themed subclasses across all classes, multiple elf / fey themed ones, the Warlock's got the fiends locked down, Fighter's got the giants... sorcerer isn't bloodline. Bloodline is spread across all classes.

Splitting up the sorcerer leaves you with nothing to build a class on.

Cut you a deal, make the wizard not need a spell book anchor tied around its neck and you can get rid of the sorcerer. But as long as the wizard has to babysit a book that is susceptible to fire, water and theft for their power, the sorcerer exists as the alternative way to get arcane magic.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Sure, but that one ability is clearly supernatural. I just want abilities like that called out as such.

Yeah but why? Like what practical difference do these semantics make?