D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Neonchameleon]

But what if the purely mundane, they could?

Then either (a) dragons have tissue paper hides (or at least hides not notably tougher than a rhino) rather than tough scales or (b) they aren't purely mundane.

Your question is little different here to suggesting that despite being purely mundane humans they can fly under their own power.

Why though? Why do they need a level cap. Really?

Because they can't keep up. At level 20 they still have the same 30' of movement and 5' sword swing they had at level 1.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because the writers of DnD did not expect to need to explain to people that Dungeons and Dragons takes place in a fantasy world full of magic. They didn't think they needed to explicitly state "magic is real, people can use magic" in every single class.

6 out of 10 fighters are explicitly magical. Only four of them could have any excuse to not be magical.

But that doesn't matter. Because you demanded an explanation. We said that DnD is a place with magical background radiation suffusing everything. You demanded to know where it says that in the books. Monks say that Ki is a magical energy found in all living bodies, proving using the books that DnD is a place with magical background radiation. Now you demand to know why this was never mentioned for the specific classes of the fighter or rogue.

If I could magically make that explanation appear, what would be your next demand? Why it wasn't more clear?

Again. If you take the books as gospel, every living body has magical energy in it in the world's of DnD. Argue that Fighters and Rogues do not have living bodies, or accept that we have given you the explanation you kept demanding.

I argued that fighters and rogues are not supernatural because, unlike other classes, the descriptions of those two make no mention of a supernatural or magical source for their abilities. If they did, I would be satisfied (if not exactly happy about it). I don't believe that is too much to ask to accept your claim.

 

[Micah Sweet]

People don’t want to play npc classes, they want to play mundane non-powered heroes who still do extraordinary feats of strength, skill and heroism on the level of all the rest of the classes and not get told ‘oh 10th level, better join team magic now cause skill wont cut it from here’ because that is what those class’s fantasies are.

It’s really not that difficult a concept to grasp is it?

Can you provide an example of a mundane character in fiction that can plausibly stand up to 10th level + threats without supernatural aid? If not, how can that specific thing really be a class fantasy?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Believing so hard in a mythical planar Daddy that you gain the power to move stuff with your mind (traditional cleric) vs believing in yourself or a virtue so had you get it.

I prefer the option of the latter because it means I don't have to make a slave everytime I make a faith-based character. Sometimes I don't want to make a drow that has to lick lolth's toe fungus in order to cast smite someone.

You're not actually saying what it sounds like you're saying about religious people right?

Regardless, supernatural power has to come from somewhere, or everyone would have it, and despite the "magical world" you keep talking about, the majority of people are not running around with supernatural abilities. What gives?

 

[Shardstone]

You're not actually saying what it sounds like you're saying about religious people right?

Regardless, supernatural power has to come from somewhere, or everyone would have it, and despite the "magical world" you keep talking about, the majority of people are not running around with supernatural abilities. What gives?

Believe harder.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think you're more thinking of Green Arrow than Batman; other than Batarangs, Bat-Grapnels, and Smoke Bombs Batman tends to get 1-2 tailored gadgets per adventure. Which is part of why I think infusions would work better.

Hmm, maybe. I think it is because Batman only ever brings exactly what he needs to the fight, and he stores the rest at his house. An adventurer can't do that, so picturing a batman without the batcave leads to someone who is carrying a wide variety of specific gear.

I agree Green Arrow is the same way... but he was kind of intentionally meant to be a pastiche of Batman anyways.

 

[Chaosmancer]

People don’t want to play npc classes, they want to play mundane non-powered heroes who still do extraordinary feats of strength, skill and heroism on the level of all the rest of the classes and not get told ‘oh 10th level, better join team magic now cause skill wont cut it from here’ because that is what those class’s fantasies are.

It’s really not that difficult a concept to grasp is it?

The thing is, I think there is a... I don't even want to call it a different path.

Skill is magic, magic is skill.

DnD takes place in a world where you can survive being impaled because your soul burns too strongly to be snuffed out and your conviction is such that death will not take you this day. Wizardry is a learned skill, that leads to magic. I have no problem saying that feats of skill and strength are here.

Where my issue comes in at is that, at some point, you need to move beyond human limits. Which shouldn't be shocking, the vast majority of options are not human. I find it almost baffling that we keep trying to limit these non-human characters in a mythical world to what we could see a US Marine do. At some point. to me, a foe is strong enough that Earth Human limits do not apply... but fantasy humans burst past that limit. They are THAT skilled, THAT determined, THAT bad-ass that they can do the impossible.

But people can't just let them do that. They need explanations. They need reasons. They need us to explain how determination and willpower can change a person. So, I try and give that explanation. In part because I feel it does make sense, and it doesn't take away from those tropes.


I'm reminded of one of the most powerful people in the world of Primal Hunter. The Sword Saint is an old Japanese man, when the world was being rewritten, he was on his deathbed, but was given another chance. He is insanely strong, and can even alter his own personal time, gaining an ability that allows him to return to his youth. How does he do this? How did he get this ability? 1) By being really good with a sword and devoting himself to philosophy and swordsmanship. 2) By having experienced something profound during WWII. There is an entire chapter dedicated to his experience in the winter that nearly killed him, and that story and that personal realization of that moment, is what gave him his ability.

It is an ability, he has abilities, but they are rooted in his skills, his dedication to his arts and his philosophy, and his mindset. I truly do believe you could, in a fantasy world, become so good at swordsmanship as to cut time itself with your blade. It is only for those people who cry out about it being impossible for a physical object to damage a metaphysical concept that I point out the physics of a fantasy world allow for these things.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I argued that fighters and rogues are not supernatural because, unlike other classes, the descriptions of those two make no mention of a supernatural or magical source for their abilities. If they did, I would be satisfied (if not exactly happy about it). I don't believe that is too much to ask to accept your claim.

No, that is where you moved the goalposts to.

And besides, my warforged rogue and tiefling Fighter are supernatural beings with supernnatural abilities. Who are capable of learning supernatural techniques, while living in a supernatural world. Why do they also need an explicitly stated exterior force (other than the world itself) to justify being... supernatural?

 

[FrogReaver]

The thing is, I think there is a... I don't even want to call it a different path.

Skill is magic, magic is skill.

DnD takes place in a world where you can survive being impaled because your soul burns too strongly to be snuffed out and your conviction is such that death will not take you this day. Wizardry is a learned skill, that leads to magic. I have no problem saying that feats of skill and strength are here.

Where my issue comes in at is that, at some point, you need to move beyond human limits. Which shouldn't be shocking, the vast majority of options are not human. I find it almost baffling that we keep trying to limit these non-human characters in a mythical world to what we could see a US Marine do. At some point. to me, a foe is strong enough that Earth Human limits do not apply... but fantasy humans burst past that limit. They are THAT skilled, THAT determined, THAT bad-ass that they can do the impossible.

But people can't just let them do that. They need explanations. They need reasons. They need us to explain how determination and willpower can change a person. So, I try and give that explanation. In part because I feel it does make sense, and it doesn't take away from those tropes.


I'm reminded of one of the most powerful people in the world of Primal Hunter. The Sword Saint is an old Japanese man, when the world was being rewritten, he was on his deathbed, but was given another chance. He is insanely strong, and can even alter his own personal time, gaining an ability that allows him to return to his youth. How does he do this? How did he get this ability? 1) By being really good with a sword and devoting himself to philosophy and swordsmanship. 2) By having experienced something profound during WWII. There is an entire chapter dedicated to his experience in the winter that nearly killed him, and that story and that personal realization of that moment, is what gave him his ability.

It is an ability, he has abilities, but they are rooted in his skills, his dedication to his arts and his philosophy, and his mindset. I truly do believe you could, in a fantasy world, become so good at swordsmanship as to cut time itself with your blade. It is only for those people who cry out about it being impossible for a physical object to damage a metaphysical concept that I point out the physics of a fantasy world allow for these things.

There are all sorts of fantasy worlds. The question is which kind for d&d and that’s where the contention lies. That fantasy world precludes/allows things others want/don’t want in their d&d fantasy worlds.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The thing is, I think there is a... I don't even want to call it a different path.

Skill is magic, magic is skill.

DnD takes place in a world where you can survive being impaled because your soul burns too strongly to be snuffed out and your conviction is such that death will not take you this day. Wizardry is a learned skill, that leads to magic. I have no problem saying that feats of skill and strength are here.

Where my issue comes in at is that, at some point, you need to move beyond human limits. Which shouldn't be shocking, the vast majority of options are not human. I find it almost baffling that we keep trying to limit these non-human characters in a mythical world to what we could see a US Marine do. At some point. to me, a foe is strong enough that Earth Human limits do not apply... but fantasy humans burst past that limit. They are THAT skilled, THAT determined, THAT bad-ass that they can do the impossible.

But people can't just let them do that. They need explanations. They need reasons. They need us to explain how determination and willpower can change a person. So, I try and give that explanation. In part because I feel it does make sense, and it doesn't take away from those tropes.


I'm reminded of one of the most powerful people in the world of Primal Hunter. The Sword Saint is an old Japanese man, when the world was being rewritten, he was on his deathbed, but was given another chance. He is insanely strong, and can even alter his own personal time, gaining an ability that allows him to return to his youth. How does he do this? How did he get this ability? 1) By being really good with a sword and devoting himself to philosophy and swordsmanship. 2) By having experienced something profound during WWII. There is an entire chapter dedicated to his experience in the winter that nearly killed him, and that story and that personal realization of that moment, is what gave him his ability.

It is an ability, he has abilities, but they are rooted in his skills, his dedication to his arts and his philosophy, and his mindset. I truly do believe you could, in a fantasy world, become so good at swordsmanship as to cut time itself with your blade. It is only for those people who cry out about it being impossible for a physical object to damage a metaphysical concept that I point out the physics of a fantasy world allow for these things.

That is a beautiful statement, truly. I assume this is the setting assumption you play by in your own games,, and it sounds awesome. But if you want a game to be generally taken in this way, to have these assumptions, then the game itself has to say that, and hopefully back it up with mechanics. Otherwise, it's your interpretation only. This is my only point.