D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Gammadoodler]

Arguably the explanation of magic in the PHB, ie, "The Weave", which is a Forgotten Realms concept (I won't weigh in on whether or not it's now intended to be a universal D&D concept, lest we inadvertently rile up fans of other D&D settings).

EDIT: or heck, our sample of character creation is Bruenor Battlehammer (the art proves that this is so), and my goodness, is that Drizzt Do'Urden on page 21? It surely is, and there's a blurb about him a few pages later:

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And that would comprise near the totality of direct reference to the Realms in the PHB. There is also a half a sentence in the Dwarf entry, and a page of human FR ethnicities (which everyone totally uses right?). There is also a mention of Draconians from Dragonlance in the Dragonborn section.

Also, for each of these, it is specifically mentioned which world these belong to rather than being a universal truth of all D&D settings.

Then there is the whole "worlds of adventure" section in the very beginning of the book where they rattle off like 8 or 10 different D&D settings.

Near the entire book is presented assiduously and purposefully without setting context (and the bits that aren't often feel out of place).

Maybe there is a whole population of Salvatore fans who have the right lens to see this crazy web of FR connections (I sincerely doubt it). But I can assure you as they are invisible to others, and I think that's for the best.

Edit: the whole "Worlds of Adventure" section is directly contrary to the assertion that the PHB is the Realms.

 

[James Gasik]

I'm not saying that the PHB is set in the Realms or that there is an exclusive relationship. But you said: "There is almost nothing from FR in the PHB", and there's actually quite a bit.

Maybe that's being pedantic, I don't know. Other settings do get mentioned in the PHB, like Dragonlance, but the Forgotten Realms gets more notice. I'd say this has more to do with the fact that the Forgotten Realms is popular and WotC does more with it than other settings than any attempt to make Faerun the default setting.

 

[Chaosmancer]

To be fair to Krillan, the creatures mopping the floor with him are sufficiently powerful to destroy the world. The fact that he survives multiple encounters with them is sufficient for me to consider that he would likely win handily against like a D&D Frost Giant.

Yeah, Krillin is merely capable of leveling mountains and flying around the world, same as Yamcha (also human), Tien (probably not human, since he has three eyes) and Chiaotzu (maybe not human?)

Meanwhile, the series protagonists (Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta) are capable of destroying planets and transporting across galaxies.

It is also fun to note that Krillin USED to be an equal to Goku, and Yamcha, Tien and Chiaotzu all used to be STRONGER than Goku.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Correct

Okay.

You are of course aware that "my game doesn't use the official material" doesn't suddenly make that material not an official part of the game, right?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Fair enough. 5e has changed the game in yet another way I don't care for, destroying the concept of a mundane PC and ruining the ability to reasonably play any number of inspirations from fantasy.

You win.

Okay. So now that we can be finished arguing about whether or not these things can be allowed, we can get back to discussing other matters.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The narrative is necessary because there needs to be a clear way to disconnect the "reallife" mundane low tiers (levels 1 thru 4 and 5 thru 8) from the superhero high tiers. These are different genres. By a certain tier, the medievalesque constraints become irrelevant. "Castle walls? Everyone fly!" And so on.

How Tolkien and Superman coexist in the same setting requires a thoughtful explanation.

I mean... not really.

We have established via the Monk PHB entry that Ki is an expression of the magic that is inside all living beings. Humans are living beings in the world. So... this?


"How can he do this? He is only human?" is a... nonsense response from us the readers/viewers. He is a powerful warrior, being human doesn't make him less of a powerful warrior, and a powerful warrior can kill a young dragon in a fight. Could the city guard? No, they aren't that strong. But they are strong enough to take on other threats.

The only real consideration is how you deal with high level characters in the world-building expression. Sure, a castle wall isn't going to phase this guy (earlier his training was shown to have cut a ridge into a cliff) but Castle walls aren't for stopping EVERYONE anyways, because lots of things can bypass them in a few different ways. Castle walls are for stopping MOST things. So a castle wall on a castle out in the sticks might be vulnerable to a high level character, and that's fine. Once you get to an empire capital, you have to adjust for other considerations (and you likely should have already been doing so)

Frankly, all this changes is that martial characters have a higher ceiling, and mages and clerics and druids ALREADY warped the world and needed accounting for at high levels. Adding martials who can do some crazy stunts doesn't really change that. They'd be just as rare, after all.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I'm not saying that the PHB is set in the Realms or that there is an exclusive relationship. But you said: "There is almost nothing from FR in the PHB", and there's actually quite a bit.

Maybe that's being pedantic, I don't know. Other settings do get mentioned in the PHB, like Dragonlance, but the Forgotten Realms gets more notice. I'd say this has more to do with the fact that the Forgotten Realms is popular and WotC does more with it than other settings than any attempt to make Faerun the default setting.

I think we might both be guilty of pedantry.
There appear to be something like 10 references to the realms in a 250 page book.

It appears you see that as "quite a bit". While I see it as "almost nothing". It's possible we're both right/wrong.

In either case, I don't think the Realms are as integral to the 5E PHB as Yaarel is trying to claim. And yet, even without a good setting integrated into the rules, 5E has sold spectacularly.

 

[James Gasik]

I think we might both be guilty of pedantry.
There appear to be something like 10 references to the realms in a 250 page book.

It appears you see that as "quite a bit". While I see it as "almost nothing". It's possible we're both right/wrong.

In either case, I don't think the Realms are as integral to the 5E PHB as Yaarel is trying to claim. And yet, even without a good setting integrated into the rules, 5E has sold spectacularly.

I can agree with that. I mean, D&D has always been setting-agnostic, even when 3e had Greyhawk gods in the PHB, obviously Greyhawk wasn't the prime setting. Even though 4e had a unified setting with the Nentir Vale/Points of Light, very quickly a lot of work was done (regardless of the result, it was work done) on the Forgotten Realms.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I feel the solution is, the default setting (FR) can define the high tiers themselves as "tapping into magic".

Is FR the default setting? I thought 5e didn’t have a default setting.

In the case of the Martial power source, it is possible that the "ki", the part of the soul that emanates the bodily aura, is able to achieve the Extraordinary effects. This kind of ki magic is innate and has nothing to do with the Weave.

Meanwhile, the low tiers − levels 1 thru 4 and 5 thru 8 − are strictly "mundane" and refer to reallife to adjudicate narrative scenarios.

At the higher tiers, it is more helpful to refer to superhero comicbooks and mythic tropes to adjudicate narrative scenarios.

So, does the PHB need to explicitly state that at levels 1-4 rogues and fighters (but not barbarians or monks) are explicitly mundane. And further, that at level 5 (no earlier, no later) rogues and fighters become extraordinary. Also, some subclasses are magical (not extraordinary, at level 3) such as arcane tricksters and eldritch knights. At level 5, I’m not clear what happens: does the arcane trickster become extraordinary, or does it remain magical? Is the arcane trickster’s Evasion ability different from the thief’s? If the arcane trickster’s Evasion ability is magical, why can’t wizards and sorcerers access it?

If concluding that some fighter and rogue subclasses are mundane until level 4 and extraordinary afterwards allows you to make sense of the game, have at it. But don’t impose your conceptions on everyone else by saying they should be included in the PHB, particularly when they apply to a subset (2 of 13 classes) of a subset (less than half the subclasses) of a subset (only the races that aren’t innately magical).

 

[CreamCloud0]

To me it is obvious that high tier Fighters and Rogues are magical. But the how − the explanation − matters.

I feel the solution is, the default setting (FR) can define the high tiers themselves as "tapping into magic".

In the case of the Martial power source, it is possible that the "ki", the part of the soul that emanates the bodily aura, is able to achieve the Extraordinary effects. This kind of ki magic is innate and has nothing to do with the Weave.

Meanwhile, the low tiers − levels 1 thru 4 and 5 thru 8 − are strictly "mundane" and refer to reallife to adjudicate narrative scenarios.

At the higher tiers, it is more helpful to refer to superhero comicbooks and mythic tropes to adjudicate narrative scenarios.

personally i feel like 'mundane' is better used as a descriptor for the nature of a kind of action rather than a...scope or grade of them, even if your 20th level fighter is reducing a castle wall into fine rubble with a single punch, well, a punch is still a punch, it's a mundane action, albeit an extraordinary example of a mundane action, that 20th level fighter is still just doing mundane actions and is therefore still classified as 'mundane' themselves(barring deviations of individual subclasses), it's exaggerated well past what would be possible in the real world but it's a logical extension of everyday actions and what would be possible if you removed the 'skill cap'/physical limitations of the real world