Only thing I don't like so far: Power Replacement

[Wish]

If you do allow players to keep their encounter powers, you need to check for abilities that trigger when all encounter powers are used. The Demigod power comes to mind, but there may be others. I'd normally be in favor of keeping my lower level powers, as a player, even if I never used them, but if I find myself fighting the BBEG and have to waste my time dumping 1st and 5th level encounter powers just so I can get back the one I really want and spent 30 levels working toward, I think I that might irritate me.

 

[bobthehappyzombie]

I don't really see how one can like/conceptually accept the retraining every level, but not like/conceptually accept the advancing of powers at set levels... both mean you can no longer use your old powers, both allow you to chose something new, and if you really want to keep your trusty old power just swap a different level one.


As an aside the capstone demigod epic destiny power is actually worse if you keep your old powers, so there is one instance where you might not choose to keep them (though that is right at the end of the characters career)

edit - too slow

 

[Zsig]

EDIT: My point is that I'm willing to sacrifice "realism" for "a relatively balanced and fun gameplay experience."

Amen.

I like to play D&D probably as much as I like to play GURPS.

But, when I play D&D I want to play D&D, and when I play GURPS I want to play GURPS.

 

[hong]

That's just it. The spells tha you suddenly forget are ones you have been using constantly throughout your adventuring career. You literally gain a level, go to sleep that night and wake up the next day unable to remember the spell you cast yesterday.

This is about as believable as literally gaining a level, going to sleep, and waking up the next day able to cast fireball.

The reason for retraining is to avoid buyer's remorse: so that you don't get locked into choices that looked good at the time, but turn out to be crappy later on. You can't fix this just by giving out more powers, because expectations change. If you have N powers, the expectation is that all those powers will be useful, not that you will have M useful ones and (N - M) ones that are crappy but you're stuck with. This holds for all values of N and M.

 

[Rowe]

The way i handle this is a bit different then what is in the books. In my campaign magic isn't rare but as you level up your spells evolve different features. I think a lvl 10 character's magic missile should be a little more versatile then a lvl 1.

A level 10 magic missile can do its 2D4+int mod or 2D4 *you gather your arcane energy into a focused point and let fly a MM stronger then the ones previous* Effect target is knocked prone.

stuff like that. Just have to be creative. You really shouldn't bind your self to every rule or feature that is in the book

 

[Roxlimn]

You can retain, them I suppose, with the additional uses of Encounters per day. However, 4e simulates 3e-like scaling by making lower level monsters into Minions. It's only fair to scale down your lower level powers once you get higher level ones. Just to eyeball it, I'd give them all a blanket -2 to hit halve the damage, and negate all status effects unless the monster being targeted was level 10 or lower.

Does that sound fair?

Essentially, these changes are reasonable, but they also mean that you're basically never going to use those powers ever again, just like the way a 20th level 3e Wizard hardly ever used a Fireball anymore.

 

[GnomeWorks]

This is about as believable as literally gaining a level, going to sleep, and waking up the next day able to cast fireball.

The sins of the past edition do not excuse the sins of the next.

With that said, I think this falls on the boundary between making the game more realistic and more "fun," as it were. It's a pain in the rear when you gain a level but have to go train, or whatnot, because you're not always in a situation where you can do that. In 3e, you woke up the next day knowing things you literally couldn't physically do before; in 4e, you wake up missing chunks of your memory, but able to do things you couldn't do before. Neither is particularly satisfying from a versimilar perspective, but they both are functional from a game perspective.

It bothers me a bit, but I'm not sure how best to go about replacing it. You don't want to screw players for not being able to go "train," or however you choose to deal with the details of players gaining their new level-based abilities, but at the same time it doesn't seem sensical for you to wake up with a bunch of new things that you couldn't do before (and possibly having forgotten some, in 4e's case).

The reason for retraining is to avoid buyer's remorse: so that you don't get locked into choices that looked good at the time, but turn out to be crappy later on. You can't fix this just by giving out more powers, because expectations change. If you have N powers, the expectation is that all those powers will be useful, not that you will have M useful ones and (N - M) ones that are crappy but you're stuck with. This holds for all values of N and M.

I concur, retraining rules are a good call.

 

[frankthedm]

If you had more than a handful of encounter powers, they would effectively be "At Will" powers. Same way with daily powers, if you have more than a few, you have enough where you could use them every encounter.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I had this exact same problem with the retraining rules, both replacing old powers as you level, and retraining one ability every level. Both seem really silly to me. I posted on the Wizards website and got various handwaves for ways that I could justify this in-game, however, nothing has really stuck with me as a viable reason why a character suddenly loses access to burning hands as soon as they can cast fireball.

It would be fine if the skills system didn't work exactly the opposite, where as you level, you remember every easy skill check you ever learned, but for some inexplicable reason, everyone loses their "apprentice" level powers. It makes no sense. I can believe fireballs, I can believe elves and dwarves; I can't believe that heroes are forgetting how to punch as soon as they learn how to roundhouse kick.

This was the thread I started over there if anyone is interested:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1047821

...

Here was the most telling example of why I despise this rule:

"Hey, master, can you show me how to cast Burning Hands?"

"Sorry, kid, I forgot. Want to learn Black Fire, Acid Storm, or Icy Tomb, instead?"

"Nah, sorry, can't cast those yet."

*silence*

"Well, see ya."

"Catch ya laterz."

 

[essenbee]

In the Vancian magic model, spellcasters forgot their spells immediately after casting them, so...