Open call : artists @ authors needed!

[inkmonkeys]

I think I'd rather explode like the fat man a woman from the other Python sketch.

Hey: I've done the for-credit thing. I've earned my right to mock it. But I always got product with it. To do otherwise is cheating yourself.

 

[Eric Lofgren]

You people that dont understand, would you please, please, please think out side the box for once.

Right. I gotta ask- Exactly what people that don't understand are you referring to and what is it that they don't actually understand? What will they find outside your box?

I know I understand a good deal about the actual benefits of your offer. But maybe you could enlighten us a little further.

 

[releasethedogs]

I think I'd rather explode like the fat man a woman from the other Python sketch.

Fair enough.

Hey: I've done the for-credit thing. I've earned my right to mock it. But I always got product with it. To do otherwise is cheating yourself.

Sorry you feel that way. Its not like we would be profiting from the sale, the books are sold at cost. We need to get one book on the market so next time we can do things like pay the authors and artists. They do that kind of thing in hollywood too (example: George lucas made American Graffiti to fund star wars) If you feel that way inkmonkey then thats fine, you can think what you want, just try to be a little more positive about things.

 

[releasethedogs]

I know I understand a good deal about the actual benefits of your offer. But maybe you could enlighten us a little further.

Well it’s just that some people, including people who have been sending us anonymous e-mail cant see beyond today. They think that if there is not money involved then the product is going to be crap. They unlike you apparently cant see the bigger picture, cant understand that the key to doing art as a living is getting your name and work out there. what better way then to get it in to a game book. Can you think of another industry where fantasy artists are more likely to succeed?

Thanks for your understanding, but next time please leave out the scarasm. Thanks.

 

[inkmonkeys]

example: George lucas made American Graffiti to fund star wars

I bet he paid the actors.

Edit: And let me go further. When you make a movie, you find funding so you can pay for it. It should work that way with any business: If you don't have the start-up capital, you find investors or get a loan. If you're starting a coffeeshop (all too common in today's society), you don't ask the barristas to work for free for three months until the money starts coming in. You definitely don't ask the suppliers for free coffee beans, 'cause they're not that stupid.

And when you're publishing an RPG, you don't ask the printers for free printing, 'cause they aren't that stupid. Writers, unfortunately, are.

If you're going to start a business, start it like a business and be a professional. At the very, very least, treat the writers like the investors they are. Royalties, man, royalties!

 

[V_Shane]

"They think that if there is not money involved then the product is going to be crap."

** I personally think/feel investment is necessary. All my art materials from day one cost $. Investing in myself is a business, and business costs money. The ol' Takes money to make money routine. Plus I don't think anyone here said your product would be crap. Just not all it could be, if anything is worth doing, do it right the first time.

"They unlike you apparently cant see the bigger picture, cant understand that the key to doing art as a living is getting your name and work out there. what better way then to get it in to a game book. Can you think of another industry where fantasy artists are more likely to succeed?"

Yes, book covers, indie book publishers, prints, fairs, conventions, T-Shirts, character commisions, Ebay art sales etc. There are lots of ways to reach the gamer, I do it all the time. And make money at everything I do and I never ask anyone to help me for free.

Look the "big picture" as you call it, can't get big without commitment. Most freelancers could personally care less what you gaming vision is if there is no money involved. We see it too often and like web banner ads, become immune to it. No one can see the vision clearer than the original creator, you in this case, as such, take a year to develop your own artistic skills while you write. You'll find the core of $ investment developing as an artist isn't cheap. Especially to be pro level. Anyway, any artist can easly expose his work, jsut send art to companies, have a website, and participate on the artist message boards. You certainly have the right to ask, but don't be defensive or surprised if no one harkens to your call. If they do, they will learn thier lesson, and become the same as us who are posting now.

 

[arwink]

Its not like we would be profiting from the sale, the books are sold at cost.

To be honest, this is the thing that gets me about your arguement - when you're asking for writers to pay you, even at cost, to see their own work in print, they you are proffiting from the sale - you're getting the writers work for free. They produce the work, they give it to you, and they don't even get the satisfaction of seeing their work in print without having to pay you for the priveledge.

I know that it seems like a bunch of people are jumping on your idea in this thread, but this is something that a lot of other writing industries are trying to stamp out - try doing a search for the warning about the various permeations of the world congress of poets, which is essentially an anthology that profits by publishing material regardless of quality and then makes its profit by selling the compilation back to the contributors.

Writers are willing to put up with a lot to see work in print, but the minimum they should be accepting is the opportunity to *see* the work in print without paying for it. Like review copies, those freebies you give tot he writers are essentially the hit you take when asking for work from freelancers - it makes you look more proffesional, it gives you good word of mouth, and its not going to alienate folks who would otherwise be interested in your project by making it seem like they're giving you something for nothing.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

African, Indian, Aborigine, Oceanic myth, cryptozoology, and original creations.

you know about 45 monsters from Africa, Australia, native America, the prehistoric age, Oceana, and cryptozoology can be found in the Primal Codex, which I wrote about 3 years ago. I'll be releasing a 3.5 revision by the end of the year. Some of those monsters are already available in 3.5 format in the Bane Ledger, plus about 10 new monsters can also be found in the Bane Ledger from those same sources.

It's all OGC, so if you'd like to use them and not pay me, that's fine. You just have to give my company credit and note my copyright on that material in the OGL. You'll also have to buy a copy of the books, so I guess you will have to pay me a little.

Why don't you buy copies of all the prehistoric/stone age OGC you can find (Nyambe, Prehistorica, the Primal Codex and others) and sift through them for OGC monsters to use. That way you get content for a low price and your contributors get a small amount of compensation, and you get some cool gaming books to boot.

I'd also check other sources of OGC monsters on the net.

Besides, that's the spirit of the OGL. Why spend time re-writing impundulus and abatwas when they are already available at a very low cost? Why reinvent the wheel?

 

[Dragon-Slayer]

Well it’s just that some people, including people who have been sending us anonymous e-mail cant see beyond today. They think that if there is not money involved then the product is going to be crap. They unlike you apparently cant see the bigger picture, cant understand that the key to doing art as a living is getting your name and work out there. what better way then to get it in to a game book. Can you think of another industry where fantasy artists are more likely to succeed?

Thanks for your understanding, but next time please leave out the scarasm. Thanks.

I wouldn't consider doing work for no pay and getting exposure by a brand new company exactly success. And as inmonkeys mentioned, the printer will get paid. Why is an artist/writer who helped make the book come into being in the first place less important than a printer? Is that what is outside the box? Does an artist tell his/her internet provider that he appreciates the service and that he can't afford to pay them, however the service is dandy? I think you need to rethink your strategy there and offer not only monetary compensation but a complimentary copy to all contributors of the book in which their work appears. That is standard operating procedure and the way bigger companies work with all of their contributors, known and new.

There are many venues for fantasy art and the rpg market is but a small, and very dicey slice of the pie.

Good luck finding people who work for nothing, and remember, you get what you pay for.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

As a fellow small publisher working to get his first product to print, and as someone who has been bouncing around a while as a freelancer, I'd like to offer you some advice.

1) Pay people. Credit isn't enough to the artists who take themselves seriously and want a real go at the industry. At the very least negotiate down to some low prices, but give them some money. Remember, payment is required to be a professional. Here's a good suggestion: ask the artists to take Paypal. By using Paypal you can put the expense against a credit card rather than paying at that moment. I you'd even be better off offering a small amount of royalties or the like -- not ideal for an untested product and company, but at least it is SOMETHING.

2) Always give comp copies. If they put the work in then you owe it to them, yes, OWE it to them, to allow the artists and writers to see their work without them having to pay for it. A reduced price isn't good enough -- sure, it's a nice thing to offer reduced prices for product beyond the comp copy, but not offering the latter at all is just being cheap. There's no euphamistic way to say it. It's just cheap. Spend the money you, as a customer in this industry, would have spent on other companies' products for the next few months, set it aside, and spend it on those comp copies if you have to.

3) Don't try and sell gruel and pass it off as cake. What I mean by this is telling people that having them work for you for free and giving them credit is an "innovative" way to compensate them is insulting. If you'll notice, many game products have a section similar to "about the author" which the author usually writes, allowing them to pimp other products they've worked on, even if for other companies. Just look at a MnM book and you'll see that the last few pages have this for all writers, artists, etc. And to they got money on top of that. Telling people they "don't understand" your innovative compensation plan doesn't help because you're essentially telling them they're stupid for desiring money for their work.

What makes this worse is that you believe that exposure in your book is a desirable thing -- something worth trading money. Now, don't take it as an insult, but look at the facts. You've yet to put anything out. Nobody knows you from Adam. The artists and writers have no idea if your book will tank or be Sliced Bread Re Deux. Every publisher likes to think that they're bringing the "best thing ever" to the market, but it most likely isn't true. Because of this, the people involved have no idea how much exposure they'll be getting from your product, so there's not much value in it to them.



Now, some people will tell you to stay away from using credit cards and Paypal for this sort of thing because it's risky, but if you thought you were going to get into business without taking a risk you were kidding yourself. Most small businesses fail. If you're not willing to take a risk on your business, how can you expect the artists and writers to take a risk on you and the value of getting a credit in your book? Your unwillingness to offer ANY pay, even a negotiated small rate, communicates a lack of confidence in your product on your part because you're not willing to put your neck out on the chopping block along with the people you've asked to help your product.

So, if you're not taking your business and projects seriously -- seriously enough to come to the table with funding or with the understanding that you're willing to take a risk -- quite frankly, why are you surprised when nobody else here is taking you seriously?