Opposed Skill Roll disparity over Levels

[Starfox]

Which makes my original reasoning correct; a benchmark monster at lvl 30 should beat a benchmark PC at level 30 in an opposed skill check every time. The only thing that can save the PC is if the benchmark is not applied.

However, if the benchmark is not in use, it might be another story entirely. I am starting to think it isn't.

 

[Tuft]

Which makes my original reasoning correct; a benchmark monster at lvl 30 should beat a benchmark PC at level 30 in an opposed skill check every time. The only thing that can save the PC is if the benchmark is not applied.

However, if the benchmark is not in use, it might be another story entirely. I am starting to think it isn't.

Sorry, Starfox, but that was quite incomprehensible to me... could you elaborate?

 

[Lakoda]

Keep in mind that that +30 is really only a +30 if you treat the monster as being trained. Which means that for every skill NOT listed it is simply an ability check for the monster. These -lower- modifier checks are meant for the characters with weaker skills. The skills the monster has trained are meant from those characters that specialized in that particular skill. Most monsters have perception because if they did not the rogue would be board as stealth would be too easy. Most of the monster's don't have athletics or acrobatics so whats to stop me (the STR based random other character) from walking up and trying to grab it? Or What about those monsters that don't have insight, I can bluff and intimidate them pretty well without having to be spec'd for it.

 

[Starfox]

Sorry, Starfox, but that was quite incomprehensible to me... could you elaborate?

I was trying to recap my argument and show how it applies under the benchmark system, but not necessarily i real play against real monsters.

In the original rules the only cases this applies to is Bluff vs. Insight and Stealth vs. Perception (on the top of my head). The reason this came up was because we were thinking of how to handle acrobatic stunts, and some kind of opposed roll was proposed.

 

[Tremorsense]

A PC at level 30 who is challenging a monster in a skill competition will generally only do it if they are weighted to be good in that skill:
+15 Half-level
+6 for ability modifier
+5 for training
+4 item (these are dirt cheap at level 30)
That's an easy +30. You could have a +8 or more for your ability if it's your primary, you could have a +6 item, and you could have skill focus. That all would get you to +37.

A monster's good stat (from the DMG p184 guidelines) should have an ability score of 13+half-level, or 16+half-level in the primary attack ability. Therefore a level 30 monster will have at most a +10 from his ability modifier. All together his skill check will be:
+15 half-level
+10 ability modifier
+5 training

That's also 30, but only if the ability score for this skill is important to the monster. The monster in the MM with the highest Wisdom is the Godforged Colossus (level 29) with a 34. He's not trained in either Insight or Perception though, so he's only got a +26 in both. The highest Insight in the book is a couple monsters with +27. The highest Perception is Orcus (level 33) with a +28. So even the best monsters in the book are only just good, whereas a PC who is great at a skill will far, far out-strip the monster.

I've not yet seen my players have a problem with beating monsters' skills in Stealth v. Perception or Bluff v. Insight competitions. Yeah a character who neglected Stealth in every way would probably be spotted, but everyone who puts in a little effort for the skill has no problems.

 

[CapnZapp]

If you think Skill Checks are bad, check out Ability Checks... (which can't benefit from +5 Training or any bonus feats)

 

[Tellerve]

I've only had one game with my players retooling their characters after a long hiatus. Before that none of them had perception as a class skill and therefore were pretty cruddy at it.

I was noticing monsters, the early levels were filled with kobolds mostly, just abusing the heck out of them with their stealth checks. More recently they just fought a tough battle with a young black dragon that the one character who retooled with the phb2 backgrounds and was able to get perception happened to roll an 18, which became a 28 on his perception roll versus my middling roll of a 10 on the dragon, netting a 27 on his stealth. It made it so there wasn't a surprise round which was good.

On the other side is my player with a tiefling warlock at 4th level and a +15 to bluff. I think she'll do fine against the wily green dragon

 

[Starfox]

If you think Skill Checks are bad, check out Ability Checks... (which can't benefit from +5 Training or any bonus feats)

Thankfully there are very few opposed ability checks in 4E.

 

[Tuft]

Thankfully there are very few opposed ability checks in 4E.

Isn't it the suggested mechanism for stunts, or do I remember incorrectly?

 

[Christian]

Originally Posted by DMG1, page 184 (Monster Design Steps) ... On average, the highest ability score of a pair is equal to 13 + one-half the monster’s level. For example, the target score for an 8th-level monster is 17 (13 + 4). However, set the ability that governs the monster’s primary attacks to be 3 higher, or 16 + one-half the monster’s level. An 8th-level monster that relies on melee attacks should have a Strength of 20.This is what my entire argument is based on. If this is not how actual MM monsters are done (I've not crunched the monster stats), then the design guidelines are wrong and I might be barking up the wrong tree.

Well, regardless of how actual MM stats are done, your argument is wrong. You said:

A monster at level 30 gains the following improvements
+15 for level
+15 for ability increase

But by the guidelines you quoted above, it would only be +7 or +8 for ability increase; it's +15 to the stat (or to half of the stats, as that's only for the higher score of an ability pair), but the bonus from a stat is only +1 per two points. So your default monster will go up about +22 from 1 to 30 for skills based on its key attributes. A bit more than a PC will on a non-key skill, a bit less than a PC will who is focused on a skill. Looks fine to me.