D&D 5E (OPTIMIZATION) THE NAMELESS KING ! THE WIZARD's NIGHTMARE! LAST BOSS

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
At very minimum the villain would have to keep up pass without trace and see invisibility. The simulacrum can use invisibility on both of them. All these spells will be cast with subtle spell so as not to break the stealth. A greater restoration would need cast on both him and his simulacrum every day as well.

That's 4 per hour for pass without trace. That's 4 per hour for invisibility and 8 per day for greater restoration. That's 200 sorcery points required per day just to keep up your basic all the time buffs up. You get 96 per full day of short rests. You will have to long rest pretty often because you will drain your simulcarum's slots fairly often. In other words, your villain will require 3-4 days of straight rest for every 24 hours up time.
 

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mgshamster

First Post
At very minimum the villain would have to keep up pass without trace and see invisibility. The simulacrum can use invisibility on both of them. All these spells will be cast with subtle spell so as not to break the stealth. A greater restoration would need cast on both him and his simulacrum every day as well.

That's 4 per hour for pass without trace. That's 4 per hour for invisibility and 8 per day for greater restoration. That's 200 sorcery points required per day just to keep up your basic all the time buffs up. You get 96 per full day of short rests. You will have to long rest pretty often because you will drain your simulcarum's slots fairly often. In other words, your villain will require 3-4 days of straight rest for every 24 hours up time.

You've made a giant error.

This character does not have invisibility. He has greater invisibility. That's 5 sorc points *per minute.* Six with subtle.

So he's expending 360 sorc points per hour for that one spell, or 8640 points per day. So that's 90 fulls days of short rests for every 24 hours of Greater Invisibility. (It's important to note which spells, because he'll keep changing his spell list to counter any argument you make).

We covered this on GitP. His solution to it was to have all spells active at all times AND to only have them up when needed. That way he can both have the necessary sorc points and also have all buffs up before PCs can act. He often went back and forth on his answer, depending on which argument he was trying to counter.

If you found a way to hit him, then he demanded to know how you got past his buffs. But if you pointed out that his buffs costs way too many sorc points since his last long rest (which we can time at 10 days due to contingency), then all of a sudden he only had the buffs up when needed - and apparently "when needed" is always several turns before the PCs can act.

(Side Note: Notice the theme of him adding things to the PC to counter specific Tactics. It's why this PC is so oddly made. For example, his simulacrum having an Oathbow with purple worm poison? That was a specific build shown to beat this villain and simulacrum in a single round, using only critical hits. Now, this character is using the same exact tactic. Notice how the character also has immunity to poison now? He didn't before. That's new. Watch that first post, and pay attention to the edit times; it's already been edited to change wording based on posts in this thread alone.)
 

Audiomancer

Adventurer
I don't have any experience with high-level play in 5e, but I noticed a few things reading through the books:

- Some of the character's buffs (like Greater Invisibility and Pass Without Trace) require Concentration. That means, they can't all be active at the same time. To use one, you have to drop the other(s). He also can't cast any other Concentration spell while maintaining any of those buffs. And any time he takes damage, he has to make a CON check to keep his concentration up.

- His simulacrum is much weaker than he is: Only has half as many Hit Points, cannot replenish spell slots. It also does not have any of the original's magic items, so it doesn't benefit from those. Also note that a Simulacrum "obeys your spoken commands, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on your turn in combat" (PHB, p. 276). So if you can Silence the original, he has no way to command the Sim. And, since Simulacrum is a 7th-level spell, the character can't replace It without taking a Long Rest.

- Despite all his buffs and extra spell slots, he's still just one guy, and he has a limited number of actions he can take per turn. The party should be able to take five or more, and if nothing else, overcome him through sheer numbers.

So here's the party I would build to take the character down:

Cleric or Paladin to Turn the undead, and bash any who don't get the message.

Two full casters. They either make two spell attacks per turn*, especially spells that target his weak Saves, or they take turns (one Counterspelling his magic use while the other attacks).

One ranged martial specialist (Arcane Archer?) to harass the character from a distance**

One melee martial specialist (probably a Barbarian, but a Monk might work) to get in close and make hand-to-hand attacks

(And - if the DM allowed it, one NPC Bard who doesn't participate in combat, but takes notes and composes an ode to celebrate the party's glorious victory)

* The character has Counterspell, but it's a reaction, and you only get one reaction per turn. Unless he somehow has a feature that gives him unlimited reactions. Plus, his Counterspells require him to make a spellcasting check, which means he will fail one eventually.

** Yes, the character is resistant to ranged damage. But resistance is not immunity, and any damage potentially breaks his concentration.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I don't have any experience with high-level play in 5e, but I noticed a few things reading through the books:

- Some of the character's buffs (like Greater Invisibility and Pass Without Trace) require Concentration. That means, they can't all be active at the same time. To use one, you have to drop the other(s). He also can't cast any other Concentration spell while maintaining any of those buffs. And any time he takes damage, he has to make a CON check to keep his concentration up.

- His simulacrum is much weaker than he is: Only has half as many Hit Points, cannot replenish spell slots. It also does not have any of the original's magic items, so it doesn't benefit from those. Also note that a Simulacrum "obeys your spoken commands, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on your turn in combat" (PHB, p. 276). So if you can Silence the original, he has no way to command the Sim. And, since Simulacrum is a 7th-level spell, the character can't replace It without taking a Long Rest.

- Despite all his buffs and extra spell slots, he's still just one guy, and he has a limited number of actions he can take per turn. The party should be able to take five or more, and if nothing else, overcome him through sheer numbers.

So here's the party I would build to take the character down:

Cleric or Paladin to Turn the undead, and bash any who don't get the message.

Two full casters. They either make two spell attacks per turn*, especially spells that target his weak Saves, or they take turns (one Counterspelling his magic use while the other attacks).

One ranged martial specialist (Arcane Archer?) to harass the character from a distance**

One melee martial specialist (probably a Barbarian, but a Monk might work) to get in close and make hand-to-hand attacks

(And - if the DM allowed it, one NPC Bard who doesn't participate in combat, but takes notes and composes an ode to celebrate the party's glorious victory)

* The character has Counterspell, but it's a reaction, and you only get one reaction per turn. Unless he somehow has a feature that gives him unlimited reactions. Plus, his Counterspells require him to make a spellcasting check, which means he will fail one eventually.

** Yes, the character is resistant to ranged damage. But resistance is not immunity, and any damage potentially breaks his concentration.

I think you are misunderstanding the challenge of this situation.

1. He obtains a 1200ft range and can knock back on hit.
2. He flys.
3. He uses a simulacrum (allowing 2 concentration spells to be used at the same time).
4. He obtains a very high stealth score and uses invisibility a lot.
5. Most spells don't break his invisibility to cast as he can use subtle spell.

Assuming there are no errors in being able to do these tricks (I think there are but that's a different issue...) But assuming there are no errors in being able to use these tricks as described that makes a very hard to approach enemy.

How do you approach something that's 1200ft in the air, invisible and more stealthy than your rogue that you can track you without you knowing it's there so that he can pick an opportune time to ambush you?

Your party would die horribly to such a creature (keep in mind that's not all the creatures tricks). You need to be able to see invisible creatures. You need to have the whole party capable of flying. You need a fast way to approach. Gaining about 30ft a turn in an aerial battle against an enemy that severly outranges you won't cut it because he can just go up. It would take you 20 turns just to get into longbow range. Any character that moves much faster just becomes the first to fall as he will become the focus of his attention.

It takes a special party to defeat that enemy. The normal kind of party probly won't even get an attack off against the villain.
 




mgshamster

First Post
I think you are misunderstanding the challenge of this situation.

1. He obtains a 1200ft range and can knock back on hit.
2. He flys.
3. He uses a simulacrum (allowing 2 concentration spells to be used at the same time).
4. He obtains a very high stealth score and uses invisibility a lot.
5. Most spells don't break his invisibility to cast as he can use subtle spell.

Assuming there are no errors in being able to do these tricks (I think there are but that's a different issue...) But assuming there are no errors in being able to use these tricks as described that makes a very hard to approach enemy.

How do you approach something that's 1200ft in the air, invisible and more stealthy than your rogue that you can track you without you knowing it's there so that he can pick an opportune time to ambush you?

There's a magic rune in SKT that doubles your ranged weapon attack. It's also available for a 2 level dip in Rune Scribe (and this is why he added the stipulation "No UA material," to counter my build). This makes your longbow have 1200' range and no disadvantage for range. Oathbow gives you advantage against the target of your oath.

Three level dip in something that grants see invisibility at level 2 counters the invisibility issue.

17 level champion has a crit threat range of 18-20. With advantage, super advantage from elven accuracy, and lucky, you'd have a 48% chance to crit. Now just maximize your crit dice. I had a build that was doing an average of 100 damage per shot and 8 shots per round for the first two rounds. That build was why he added immunity to poison to the coffeelock.

But range doesn't really matter, because the coffeelock is also using counterspell to counter any spells of 8th level or lower using his 8th level slot. This puts him at a maximum range of 30 feet. Did you notice that? He's at a range of 1200 feet using spells with a range of 30 feet, thinking they're a viable tactic.

Plus, he claims that dispel magic is an attack, and therefore won't bypass sanctuary, which is flatly wrong. He doesn't even know what an Attack is according to the rules of the book. He makes up his own rules.

Also note that he's not hidden unless he actually takes the hide action. And if he's in darkness, well, you can actually see a giant globe of darkness floating around, meaning you know where he is.

His tactics involve using multiple concentration spells, so as soon as he uses one, all others cancel out (including greater invisibility), meaning that he's now a target in the air with no cover.

His undead "army" is a maximum of 8 undead (or up to 16 for a single 24 hour time limit). The 16 costs his simulacrum it's 5th level slot. He also doesn't get to choose to have low level undead mages in his army with Animate Dead; it's skeletons or zombies only.

His use of Major Image multiple times takes up his higher levels slots. We already know his 8th is gone from counterspell, his 9th is gone from wish, and his 6th is gone from contingency (unless he took a long rest in the past ten days, removing all his unlimited spell slots of 5th and lower). That gives him his 7th level slot. Alternatively, perhaps he used up all his higher levels slots making an undead army or major illusions - that allows you to cast a high level dispel magic that he can't counter, removing *all* his illusions, invisibility, defensive buffs, etc... Or an antimagic field around him, destroying it all.

That's the glaring problem with this character. He uses way too many actions at once, ignores spell rules, uses too many higher level spells without a long rest or has consumed all his sorc points, and much much more. This is a Schrödinger build. (I'll also note that his build no longer has resistance to fire damage, so meteor swarm is now an effective tactic again; it'll kill all his undead and his simulacrum, and kill him on a failed save).
 

Hygor Haas

Banned
Banned
There's a magic rune in SKT that doubles your ranged weapon attack. It's also available for a 2 level dip in Rune Scribe (and this is why he added the stipulation "No UA material," to counter my build). This makes your longbow have 1200' range and no disadvantage for range. Oathbow gives you advantage against the target of your oath.

Three level dip in something that grants see invisibility at level 2 counters the invisibility issue.

17 level champion has a crit threat range of 18-20. With advantage, super advantage from elven accuracy, and lucky, you'd have a 48% chance to crit. Now just maximize your crit dice. I had a build that was doing an average of 100 damage per shot and 8 shots per round for the first two rounds. That build was why he added immunity to poison to the coffeelock.

But range doesn't really matter, because the coffeelock is also using counterspell to counter any spells of 8th level or lower using his 8th level slot. This puts him at a maximum range of 30 feet. Did you notice that? He's at a range of 1200 feet using spells with a range of 30 feet, thinking they're a viable tactic.

Plus, he claims that dispel magic is an attack, and therefore won't bypass sanctuary, which is flatly wrong. He doesn't even know what an Attack is according to the rules of the book. He makes up his own rules.

Also note that he's not hidden unless he actually takes the hide action. And if he's in darkness, well, you can actually see a giant globe of darkness floating around, meaning you know where he is.

His tactics involve using multiple concentration spells, so as soon as he uses one, all others cancel out (including greater invisibility), meaning that he's now a target in the air with no cover.

His undead "army" is a maximum of 8 undead (or up to 16 for a single 24 hour time limit). The 16 costs his simulacrum it's 5th level slot. He also doesn't get to choose to have low level undead mages in his army with Animate Dead; it's skeletons or zombies only.

His use of Major Image multiple times takes up his higher levels slots. We already know his 8th is gone from counterspell, his 9th is gone from wish, and his 6th is gone from contingency (unless he took a long rest in the past ten days, removing all his unlimited spell slots of 5th and lower). That gives him his 7th level slot. Alternatively, perhaps he used up all his higher levels slots making an undead army or major illusions - that allows you to cast a high level dispel magic that he can't counter, removing *all* his illusions, invisibility, defensive buffs, etc... Or an antimagic field around him, destroying it all.

That's the glaring problem with this character. He uses way too many actions at once, ignores spell rules, uses too many higher level spells without a long rest or has consumed all his sorc points, and much much more. This is a Schrödinger build. (I'll also note that his build no longer has resistance to fire damage, so meteor swarm is now an effective tactic again; it'll kill all his undead and his simulacrum, and kill him on a failed save).

0) Wait? Are you calling me troll? Do not expect any education from me.

1) Is it serious that you are trying to use Unearthed Arcana ???? this is not an official source, this is just testing, nothing more. It's 1200' vs 600', a Joke!

2) This your "archer" is completely useless, there are no covers. Easily found and killed by Undeads. And detail, it's an Army of Undeads and not 8. It still has some balors around. It's easy target.

Even if you are considering using Unearthed Material, your character does not have any advantage, Staff of Warming Insects (No concentration) / Darkness / Invisibility / Stealth nullify any advantage.

How you'll identify ignore Major Images or Programmed Illusion or Simulacrum, will it be funny to see you attacking illusions? How will you deal with 6 mirror images? How are you going to spend at Heightein Sanctuary?

Your damage is a joke, sorry, maybe 10 rounds you can get enough damage.

3) Dispel is a harmful spell, Sanctuary works normally. Are u troll?

4) Major Images and Programmed Ilusions was casted previously.

5) I will not even consider the attack the villain, because it would be a massacre.

6) Even you using Unearthed Arcana (Test Material) and ignoring the defenses of the villain and ignoring the Undeads. Your damage is very low.
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
0) Wait? Are you calling me troll? Do not expect any education from me.

1) Is it serious that you are trying to use Unearthed Arcana ???? this is not an official source, this is just testing, nothing more. It's 1200' vs 600', a Joke!

2) This your "archer" is completely useless, there are no covers. Easily found and killed by Undeads. And detail, it's an Army of Undeads and not 8. It still has some balors around. It's easy target.

Even if you are considering using Unearthed Material, your character does not have any advantage, Staff of Warming Insects (No concentration) / Darkness / Invisibility / Stealth nullify any advantage.

As you'll identify ignore Major Images or Programmed Illusion or Simulacrum, will it be funny to see you attacking illusions? How will you deal with 6 mirror images? How are you going to spend at Heightein Sanctuary?

Your damage is a joke, sorry, maybe 10 rounds you can get enough damage.

3) Dispel is a harmful spell, Sanctuary works normally. Are u troll?

4) Major Images and Programmed Ilusions was casted previously.

5) I will not even consider the attack the villain, because it would be a massacre.

6) Even you using Unearthed Arcana (Test Material) and ignoring the defenses of the villain and ignoring the Undeads. Your damage is very low.

1. Tell me the source of your stealth expertise. Isn't it unearthed arcana?

2. Dispel magic isn't harmful. It can be cast on an ally to end bad rebuffs just as easily as it's cast on an enemy. Sorry but dispel magic bypasses sanctuary. You
 

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