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OSRIC: something for the old schoolers

Rothe

First Post
PapersAndPaychecks said:
I can't see what objection they could have.

:confused: They may fear you will fragment their market or reduce their market for their own 1e AD&D products or re-releases. They may fear this is treading to close in product identity to their 1e AD&D and hence may need to police their 1e AD&D mark by asking you to cease and desist. They may feel their AD&D mark is famous and may fear dilution, asking you to cease and desist. I assume you "checked" US and UK law but there may be other jurisdictions with broader intellectual property protections, regions where WotC has rights. I assume the OSRIC site can be accessed from anywhere in the world? I admire the work you put into this, just don't be surprised if they do object, especially if someone starts making money off of this.
 

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Rothe said:
:confused: They may fear you will fragment their market or reduce their market for their own 1e AD&D products or re-releases.

What market? Which such products do WOTC sell?

Rothe said:
They may fear this is treading to close in product identity to their 1e AD&D and hence may need to police their 1e AD&D mark by asking you to cease and desist. They may feel their AD&D mark is famous and may fear dilution, asking you to cease and desist.

There is no reference to any WOTC trademark in the OSRIC .pdf. The only place I have mentioned these trademarks in conjunction with OSRIC is on one page in the licensing part of the OSRIC website, which specifically lists WOTC trademarks which CANNOT be used for OSRIC.

In other words, I have the utmost respect for WOTC's trademarks and brands, and I have done everything I can to ensure that they are not infringed by OSRIC's release or by any possible use of OSRIC by a third party.

Rothe said:
I assume you "checked" US and UK law but there may be other jurisdictions with broader intellectual property protections, regions where WotC has rights. I assume the OSRIC site can be accessed from anywhere in the world? I admire the work you put into this, just don't be surprised if they do object, especially if someone starts making money off of this.

If I'd made any specific plans about how I would deal with a legal challenge from WOTC, those obviously wouldn't be something I'd discuss on a public messageboard.

I would, however, just like to note that WOTC's position is that game rules and systems cannot be copyrighted, and that I'm specifically licensed to reuse or modify terms from the SRD under the OGL. So any challenge couldn't be based on similarity of rules to any other system, nor could they be based on anything in OSRIC which is a modification of, or an extrapolation from, the SRD.

Once those items are subtracted, what's left?
 

Treebore

First Post
I just hope your right! Or at the very least considered such a minor bug in the eyes of the corporate collossus that they don't even bother with you.
 

GQuail

Explorer
PapersAndPaychecks said:
What market? Which such products do WOTC sell?

Not wanting to go too off-topic, but: this is a common defence used by "Abandonware" projects of many varieties, but I don't think it has any legal basis. Certainly, I'm a fan of various computer consoles of differing age and despite the years of non-production and absence of any release, people still face legal challenges in trading old gbames. While the reuse of, say, an old Mario game on a new Nintendo console is more likely than a release of 1E Oriental Adventures, I'm pretty sure few courts will consider that a major influence.

Still, I agree with most of your analysis: OSRIC is definatly playing the SRD ball, and for the most part I see no huge benefit in WotC getting involved. Many people who wish to continue old school gaming are either not giving Wizards money right now anyway, or will continue to do so because they enjoy the new products for whatever reason.
 

GQuail said:
Not wanting to go too off-topic, but: this is a common defence used by "Abandonware" projects of many varieties

I'm not saying that any of the old school products are "Abandonware" by any manner of means, nor was I using the argument as a defence (and indeed I don't hold that OSRIC needs defending).

The purpose of my remark was to quibble the word "market": If there's any such market, I'm not aware of it.

GQuail said:
Still, I agree with most of your analysis: OSRIC is definatly playing the SRD ball, and for the most part I see no huge benefit in WotC getting involved. Many people who wish to continue old school gaming are either not giving Wizards money right now anyway, or will continue to do so because they enjoy the new products for whatever reason.

That was certainly my belief.
 

Rothe

First Post
Originally Posted by Rothe
They may fear you will fragment their market or reduce their market for their own 1e AD&D products or re-releases.

PapersAndPaychecks said:
What market? Which such products do WOTC sell?

Current market? Don't think they have one, but the two other concerns: fragmentation the market and future re-releases don't rely on a current market to raise concerns at WotC. By fragment the market I mean that if there is only one choice of a commercialy supported D&D rule set then WotC benefits. If people have a choice of a live commercially suppported 1e AD&D rule set then that could cause a division of dollars (or the fear of such) between 1e and the latest version. This is the last thing you might want if you are going to launch a new edition, especially if you change the rules.

On re-release, I have no idea if WotC will ever re-release or re-support the older editions, but having a competitor SRD for such in existence might be considered undesirable.

It is all about corporate perception and conservative business strategy.


....
If I'd made any specific plans about how I would deal with a legal challenge from WOTC, those obviously wouldn't be something I'd discuss on a public messageboard.

I would, however, just like to note that WOTC's position is that game rules and systems cannot be copyrighted, and that I'm specifically licensed to reuse or modify terms from the SRD under the OGL. So any challenge couldn't be based on similarity of rules to any other system, nor could they be based on anything in OSRIC which is a modification of, or an extrapolation from, the SRD.

Once those items are subtracted, what's left?

In the realm of intellectual property rights, competition law etc. (especially outside the realm of trademark, copyrights and US) is not something I want to get into over a message board either. Not trying to make a case for or against WotC, just responding to your comment that you didn't see any reason they would object.
 

Mythmere1

First Post
Rothe said:
:confused: They may fear you will fragment their market or reduce their market for their own 1e AD&D products or re-releases. They may fear this is treading to close in product identity to their 1e AD&D and hence may need to police their 1e AD&D mark by asking you to cease and desist. They may feel their AD&D mark is famous and may fear dilution, asking you to cease and desist. I assume you "checked" US and UK law but there may be other jurisdictions with broader intellectual property protections, regions where WotC has rights. I assume the OSRIC site can be accessed from anywhere in the world? I admire the work you put into this, just don't be surprised if they do object, especially if someone starts making money off of this.

Yes. However, all of what you've mentioned is trademark-oriented. If you're addressing what their concerns might be from a brand management perspective, your post is on point and illustrates why they might try to restrict the formation of a new market (illegal if it's not actually based on valid legal objections).

Trademark law would actually be an extremely weak reed if they want to try to stamp out markets in old school publishing. First, we don't use any of their trademarks at all. They'd have to rely on trade dress they haven't used or defended in decades. That's not a winner. In fact, it could be a big loser in some ways. Moreover, we don't acyually violate their trade dress; we don't use any layouts or other appearances that haven't been openly and conspicuously used by other publishers in the past.

That isn't to say they couldn't claim their day in court if they simply want to prevent the market forming. But there are risks in taking that sort of approach, especially given that they hold a massive percentage of the RPG market. They need a healthy OGL market, one that they aren't kicking at, to avoid allegations that they exercise "monopolistic power" in the relevant market. Any declines in the d20/OGL market relative to WotC increase their legal risks, and that relative decline seems to be happening. From an antitrust perspective, their smart move would actually be to encourage OSRIC - not actively support it, because it's tiny - but they'd gain non-monetary legal benefits (plus, I think, increased sales of their OOP pdfs) if OSRIC succeeds.

On the other hand, a questionable lawsuit or any activity directed at people using the OSRIC license could actually put them in the government's crosshairs at a time when the market's failing diversity makes the math bad for them.

Keep in mind, one reason for the OGL is to maintain competition in a market where without it, they risk antitrust violations for their every move. They wouldn't want to test those waters during a bad time for the small competitors. Trying to stamp out OSRIC would raise the words that no company wants to hear: a "chilling effect on competition."
 

Rothe said:
In the realm of intellectual property rights, competition law etc. (especially outside the realm of trademark, copyrights and US) is not something I want to get into over a message board either. Not trying to make a case for or against WotC, just responding to your comment that you didn't see any reason they would object.

This is my fault: I failed to make myself clear.

I'm quite sure that WOTC, like any business, would have a possible motive to destroy potentially competing products. I fully understand the business logic involved.

What I meant was, I'm not sure what grounds they could have for an objection.
 



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