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(OT) Savage Worlds

GreyOne

Explorer
I was cruising around Pinnacle's website looking for Deadlands stuff and came across this. Its a generic rules (sort of GURPS, D20) system that's a lot lighter and from all appearances, interesting looking. You can plug it into any setting or theme.

The tagline is "Fast, Furious, Fun". Combat is designed to give name characters (called Wild Cards) and NPCs a bit of extra toughness, while allowing for the obliteration of nameless mooks and cronies. Uses dice and playing cards for initiative.

They have up the 'test drive' version with about 8 pages of stuff, including the character sheet. There's also a sample fantasy adventure. The planned release is in November (I think) and the first setting is called Evernight (supposed to be very dark).

Check out the "making of it" description at the bottom.


http://www.peginc.com/SavageWorlds/index.htm
 

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GreyOne

Explorer
What? Nobody's got a single comment on this? Well here's some of the designer's notes. I think this is pretty cool.


______________________________

The Rules

So here I was in search of a faster, simpler game. I wanted something that was fast, furious, and fun. I even decided that's what the new game's "tag line" would be: Fast! Furious! Fun!

Now let me ruin the ending. This all ends with a modified Great Rail Wars system. But you should know that I wasn't close-minded about writing a new game. I played around with several different ideas. One of which was something called Blood Moon. I don't want to talk about the game world now--it will come out as a Savage Worlds setting sometime in 2003. But the game system was very simple and elegant. It was basically a 2d6 plus adds kind of system, with my traditional love of Aces (that's exploding dice for some of you, or rerolls on a roll of 6 for the rest). The problem with a game like this happens the first time you have a really large battle. It can be a real problem for a GM to roll two dice for every single mook. And you have to "kluge" autofire.

Picture this. It's Weird War One. A Hun on a machine gun cuts loose with a burst of fire. The GM either has to roll 2d6 several times (plus any Aces), or there has to be a kluge of some sort (every 5 points over the TN causes another bullet to hit or some such). Those things work, but there's a better way.

And think about a mass Warhammer type battle. I wanted something that could handle huge formations of troops as well as small roleplaying-type battles. If you've got a block of skaven fighting righteous Imperial halberdiers, you can't very well be rolling 2d6 for every figure in the two units.

Nope. It had to be one die per attack. That turns your machine gun attack into one roll of 3 dice. The block of skaven with a 10-rat front rolls 10 dice.

Okay, so you roll one die. That's nice, but it's also nice if (aside from a few common modifiers) the die roll is the result--you don't have to add any skill or attribute levels to it. What you see is what you get.

Those of you who have played the Great Rail Wars know that's what it already does.

So I came full-circle. The game system would basically be Great Rail Wars.

The Rules

Here's the basics of how Savage Worlds works. Characters are rated in their attributes and skills from a d4 to a d12 (supernatural creatures can go above a d12 to d12+1, d12+2, etc.) An average person has a d6 in his five attributes and whatever skills he possesses.

There are three basic TNs, Average (4), Hard (8), and Incredible (12). Roll that number or over and you're successful.

Damage is based on your Strength for melee weapons (Strength+3 for a long sword), or a fixed number for ranged weapons (2d6 for most pistols).

When a target is hit, he rolls his Toughness plus any armor. If damage is 1-3 points more than the Toughness roll, he's Shaken (like Eatin' Dirt in GRW). If damage is 4+, the victim is wounded. Mooks are taken off the table, heroes and archvillains suffer wounds, and eventually get into some fun, gory criticals.

That's the basic game.

Wild Cards

The only problem here was that there's no "curve" to the die roll. That's not a big deal for "mooks," but a little frustrating to a hero. So we played around with a couple of ideas. The first was that out of combat, a "hero" type could roll two of his dice and take the best. That seemed a little confusing.

The second idea was better and stuck. We called "heroes" (which also includes villains) "Wild Cards." These are player characters and arch-villains who take wounds instead of just getting taken off the table when they're wounded. They also get a "Wild Die" (a d6) along with each skill or attribute roll, and take the best.

Here's an example from the Legend of the Five Rings game Zeke Sparkes ran. My character, Iuchi Tang, had Spellcasting at d12. When I go to cast a spell, I roll a d12 and a d6 and take the best of the two. Trust me--that d6 can really save your bacon sometimes.

Adding Character

We worked in our curve, and we already knew combat was fast and easy, but characters needed much more depth to feel like real roleplaying characters and not just combat stats for minis.

Fortunately, this part was easy. All our games have Edges and Hindrances, and long ago, when we had first talked about an RPG based off GRW, we had talked about adding a "schtick" to each archetype. The idea was actually inspired by Lee Garvin's excellent Tales of the Floating Vagabond more than D20, but WOTC solidified the concept with Feats in Dungeons and Dragons 3rd Edition (r).

So we modified our Edges a bit and made them more accessible. About every other game session, you'll get to increase your hero's skills or add a new Edge. You can even increase an attribute once per "Rank." (And you'll get to "level up" four times between each Rank until you get to Legendary, when it slows down a bit.)

What's a Rank? It's a measure of how many experience point awards you've received. Characters start out at Novice. When they've received 20 experience points they become Seasoned, then Veteran, Heroic, and Legendary. (Things slow down a bit at Legendary--a whole slew of new Edges become available, but you only get to advance every 10 experience points.) Legendary also opens up a whole host of really cool Edges--such as followers, hideouts, "supernatural" stats, and so on.

Next Week: Gadgets, Spells, and Powers.
 

GreyOne

Explorer
Well, seeing as how nobody's seems interested in this, I'll bump this one more time with this info I found about the first setting to be released for this system:

"Evernight

Debuting at GenCon and shipping in September is Evernight, the first setting in the Savage Worlds line!

Fantasy heroes save the world every other week. But what would happen if they failed? That’s the question we ask in Evernight, where sinister creatures from another world --something like the Mind Flayers of Dungeons & Dragons(r) but with sinister and mysterious technology—have cast the world into darkness, toppled civilization, and taken over the known lands!

Evernight focuses on just one massive ruined city within this dark world. In “the City,” the “Masters” have slain most of the inhabitants and enslaved the rest. The slaves exist but to feed the Masters and to build massive black monuments to their cruel overlords. They struggle daily to survive in the cold and darkness made from giant smoke-belching machines that blot out the sky.

But beneath the City, small bands of refugees have retreated into ancient caverns—the Warrens. There they rally and plot to overthrow the Masters, while avoiding the denizens of the underworld and the Master’s horrible minions!

All the old favorites of your typical fantasy game are present brave paladins, rangers, thieves, clerics, and the rest, but in a world unlike any the fantasy genre has ever seen before!"
 

Ayrk

First Post
Shadow World looks really fun. I personally can't wait for Wierd War II stuff to start being dual-statted. Then I wouldn't be afraid of arming more of the Germans with MG42s.
 

trancejeremy

Adventurer
Unless something changes in the final version, I think the task resolution system is seriously broken.

I mean, someone who is as good as a human can be in a skill, still always fails 25% of the time.

Do the math yourself - Someone really good at a skill has 1d12 in it. To suceed at an average task, he needs to roll a 4 or more.

So, on a 1, 2, or 3, he fails. That's 25% of the time (since 3 faces out of a d12s 12 would result in failure).

An untrained person (d4) only suceeds at an average task 25% of the time.

PCs (and important NPCs) do get to roll a d6 as well, and take the best roll, but this simply makes the game much more confusing, IMHO.

In d20, an average task has a DC of 10.

Someone who is really good at a skill would almost never fail at an average difficulty task. Someone who is untrained still has a decent shot at accomplishing an average difficulty task.

Add in the Take 10 and Take 20 rules, and you have a pretty darn solid (and realistic) skill system. Much better than Wild Card/Savage World/Whatever.

Think about it. Do you fail at 25% of the things you do? Probably not. There'd be a lot more car crashes. And when you look at the success rate for hard stuff, well, it would be a wonder if anyone survived surgery or installing Windows if the world ran using the Wild Card/Savage Worlds/Whatever rules.


I also think that rather than being quicker, the combat system is actually more complex.

in d20, you simply make an attack roll, and if hit, you roll damage.

in this, you make an attack roll, then the defender makes a defense roll. Then you have to roll damage, which also requires another roll by the defender to resist the damage.

So, basically, you're adding two extra rolls to the combat turn. Faster? No.

All of this also makes it much harder to gauge the strength of your PCs and the opponents.
 
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JoeCrow

Explorer
Well, it *is* a d20 forum, man. Plus, there's a certain amount of tension between some of the hardcore d20 crowd and the Pinnacle crew. I believe some folks are irritated that Pinnacle dropped the d20 version of Weird Wars. Personally, I'm a system traitor who prefers to play Deadlands old school, but I'm perfectly happy to raid the Deadlands d20 book for crunchy bits for my d20 homebrew.

That said, the Savage Worlds thing looks damn fine. Are you on the mailing list? It's on Yahoohell, but it's probably the closest to an official list there is, Shane's on it, and is his usual polite and helpful self about questions and such.

One of the things I like about what I've seen is that it handles group combat as well as individual combat. I'm looking forward to the complete version.
 

GreyOne

Explorer
I'm glad some folks responded. I've been away for a week, so I'll just reply here.

trancejeremy said:
Unless something changes in the final version, I think the task resolution system is seriously broken.

I mean, someone who is as good as a human can be in a skill, still always fails 25% of the time.

Do the math yourself - Someone really good at a skill has 1d12 in it. To suceed at an average task, he needs to roll a 4 or more.

So, on a 1, 2, or 3, he fails. That's 25% of the time (since 3 faces out of a d12s 12 would result in failure).

An untrained person (d4) only suceeds at an average task 25% of the time.

PCs (and important NPCs) do get to roll a d6 as well, and take the best roll, but this simply makes the game much more confusing, IMHO.

In d20, an average task has a DC of 10.

Someone who is really good at a skill would almost never fail at an average difficulty task. Someone who is untrained still has a decent shot at accomplishing an average difficulty task.

Add in the Take 10 and Take 20 rules, and you have a pretty darn solid (and realistic) skill system. Much better than Wild Card/Savage World/Whatever.

Think about it. Do you fail at 25% of the things you do? Probably not. There'd be a lot more car crashes. And when you look at the success rate for hard stuff, well, it would be a wonder if anyone survived surgery or installing Windows if the world ran using the Wild Card/Savage Worlds/Whatever rules.


You're wrong here. Wild Cards get to roll an extra d6 which they can use to replace their skill die roll if they wish. You keep the higher score. This automatically reduces the chances of failure (I'm math-challenged so don't ask me to figure out exactly how much ;) ). Add into that the use of 'bennies' to reroll trait tests and you further make it easier to succeed at easy tasks. Remember also that this is merely the quick test-drive rules. The actual rulebook is supposed to be more than 90 pages. Add in Edges, hindrances, etc and there will be a lot of ways to "break" the rules a little bit.

Also, remember, with your driving example, on average I'm not called on to perform other than routine driving tasks. Changing lanes, accelerating, decelerating. It's only when dangerous stuff happens that my real driving skills comes into effect. Any driving stats will tell you that accidents happen all the time.

trancejeremy said:


I also think that rather than being quicker, the combat system is actually more complex.

in d20, you simply make an attack roll, and if hit, you roll damage.

in this, you make an attack roll, then the defender makes a defense roll. Then you have to roll damage, which also requires another roll by the defender to resist the damage.

So, basically, you're adding two extra rolls to the combat turn. Faster? No.

All of this also makes it much harder to gauge the strength of your PCs and the opponents.

Every comment on the Savage Worlds message-board that I've seen is pretty ecstatic about the quickness of the combat.

All it is is:

Melee: You try and roll the Target Number (TN) to hit (which is equal to the opponent's Parry Score).

Ranged: The base TN depends on range.

Now if you roll over that number, you determine damage (for melee its fixed -no rolling - you do your strength plus a weapon modifier). The Defender gets to check their toughness, and the difference over the Toughness check determines the damage. There's rules for doing extra damage to.

So in effect, there is only one extra role (only for ranged weapons). The system seems very streamlined and elegant. You don't have to keep track of endless mooks' hit points (when these guys are hit, they're removed. Only Wild Cards can take wounds.
 
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GreyOne

Explorer
JoeCrow said:
Well, it *is* a d20 forum, man. Plus, there's a certain amount of tension between some of the hardcore d20 crowd and the Pinnacle crew. I believe some folks are irritated that Pinnacle dropped the d20 version of Weird Wars. Personally, I'm a system traitor who prefers to play Deadlands old school, but I'm perfectly happy to raid the Deadlands d20 book for crunchy bits for my d20 homebrew.

That said, the Savage Worlds thing looks damn fine. Are you on the mailing list? It's on Yahoohell, but it's probably the closest to an official list there is, Shane's on it, and is his usual polite and helpful self about questions and such.

One of the things I like about what I've seen is that it handles group combat as well as individual combat. I'm looking forward to the complete version.

This is a D20 forum? What's that? ;)

I didn't know that Pinnacle is dropping Weird Wars from the D20 system. Wasn't it made for d20?

Yeah, I joined the mailing list. Jeez, I get like 24 updates a day on my email. The ability to do large scale combat as easily as small, is super cool, IMHO.

One really cool thing I read was some guy who created a marine combat scenario where he dropped the 4 PCs into the middle of a battleboard, scattered equipment around and then used the 100 Zombies from the ZOMBIES!!! boardgame to attack them. The total time for the combat was 3 hours. Everything except for 1 marine was killed. Man, I'm totally going to try that.
 

JoeCrow

Explorer
GreyOne said:


I didn't know that Pinnacle is dropping Weird Wars from the D20 system. Wasn't it made for d20?


Yep, but apparently Shane and crew think Savage Worlds works better for war-based games (given the lamentable state of d20 mass combat, they may have a point) and apparently the sales haven't taken off as much as they anticipated. Wierd War 2 will stay d20, but all subsequent releases will be Savage Worlds.
 


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