Overlords

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by AvonRekaes:

Great list!

Though I'm not really too sure about Cyl-Maaldrake's status as a rajah. He's just a balor. A unique one, sure, but certainly not on par with even Orcus, who is below Rajah status. (In 3.5 at least)

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by lord_gore:

Thanks for the correction, I've checked and it is NOT a rajah... The list's has been updated accordingly.

It's debatable whether Orcus is on par with a Rajah or below. There are many who consider the Demon Lords / Archdevils as Rajahs and some who don't.

Looking at the rules for Overlords (Dragon Magazine 337) shows that he is heavily underpowered (missing a loads of HDs and class levels, as well as Overlords traits) but he can be upgraded to meet those standard... Yet he's got loads of other features and the almost godly status that allows him to reach those levels.

I personally prefer to leave out the Demon Lords and the Archdevils and flesh out my Na-Vakhtis as I prefer.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by AvonRekaes:

True enough. I was always annoyed at PGtE for suggesting using Levistus as a Rajah, because Rajahs were closer in power to Divine Rank 5-9 Lesser Gods from Deities and Demigods, not CR 30ish demon lords/archdevils.

In the current edition, though, the power gap between gods and fiend lords is smaller (only a handful of levels or so), so it's easier to use, say, Graz'zt as a Rajah. (Just bump him up a few levels, and give him a Discorporate trait). Even then, though, I'd mainly use them as mechanical templates to build a completely different being around. (Kind of like using the stats for Orcus for Katashka. It's not really Orcus anymore.)

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by lord_gore:

just bump him a few levels

Rajahs are native outsiders with 20 HDs AND some 30-to-50 class levels. It's a lot of bumping... I'd rather call it skyrocketing!

using Levistus as a Rajah

Oh, by the way you've just hit my only doubt on the whole compilation: in the PGtE it states that Levistus is a rajah, but it DOES NOT make any hint at the name of "Draal Khatuur, the Heart of Winter". And googling it up yields no results...
Could you (or anyone) please point me to that source?

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by AvonRekaes:

I was speaking about the current edition of the game, 4th edition.

Orcus is a level 33 Solo, and Vecna (a god of comparative strength to Rajahs in 3.5) is a level 35 Solo in 4e.

So all you'd need to do to Orcus to make him feel like a Rajah, in 4th edition, is to bump him up 2 levels and give him a Discorporation trait.

(Can't speak to Draal Khatuur, the Heart of Winter, though. Sorry)

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by lord_gore:

Sorry, but I am not keen with 4e rules... I never made the upgrade so I can't say how to possibly use Demon Lords or Archfiends as rajahs.

If I am not wrong, Bel Shalor the Shadow in the Flame (ECG 4e) is a 34 level monster. Don't know about that Discorporation trait but I'd say that no bumping is required... To make things easier, I would compare Orcus and Bel Shalor to find the relevant differences to be applied on the other fiends to make them look like rajahs.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

Oh, by the way you've just hit my only doubt on the whole compilation: in the PGtE it states that Levistus is a rajah, but it DOES NOT make any hint at the name of "Draal Khatuur, the Heart of Winter". And googling it up yields no results... Could you (or anyone) please point me to that source?

I'm curious about this myself; the Heart of Winter is my creation, but as far as I know neither of the two pieces I've used her in (Sunless Feoral, created for in-print Dragon, and the Frostfell entry for the ECG) were actually published. Did one of these actually get published, or is she just being drawn from my board posts?

In any case, I wrote a piece on the Frostfell for the 4E ECG that clarified the Levistus piece. The Heart of Winter is an Overlord bound beneath the Frostfell and the lost colony of Sunless Feoral. Levistus is an archdevil cast down from Shavarath and imprisoned in the floating city of Icerazer; but while he is physically imprisoned, he is still conscious and able to act, and he is the ruler of his city. So he is less powerful than a rajah but also someone you could go have a conversation with right now.

Looking to Draal Khatuur, I actually created 3E stats for her back in the day - I should ping Paizo and see if there's any issue with me posting those somewhere. Among other things, she spreads the effects of a fimbulwinter spell within a few miles of her location if released, and this effect will increase the longer she stays out - so she could spread a new ice age across a country. This is one of the key points to Overlords for me, especially in 4E. Their combat stats are one aspect of them, but their non-combat effects on the world are equally important. If Rak Tulkhesh is free, he will drive the mortals around him to war. Bel Shalor turns your shadows against you, and brings out the darkness within people. Tiamat corrupts the hearts of dragons. These are story effects that transcend rules; if Bel Shalor is out, people in the area of his influence will start to become selfish and cruel. It won't affect PCs or exceptional people, or anyone the DM wants to be safe from it. But it's what makes the Rajahs so dangerous; they transform the world around them.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by juanpierre:

These are story effects that transcend rules; if Bel Shalor is out, people in the area of his influence will start to become selfish and cruel. It won't affect PCs or exceptional people, or anyone the DM wants to be safe from it. But it's what makes the Rajahs so dangerous; they transform the world around them.

This is actually something that my DM is doing in the campaign I play in.  It seems like Bel Shalor is getting loose, and the group has fought our own shadows a few times already.  Pretty cool way to start facing the Overlord already without actually facing him.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Madfox11:

In 4E they increased the power level of many demonlords who are now only just behind the gods. At the same time they decreased the relative powerlevel of the gods as well. The discorporation trait is something unique to the gods, meaning that unless the opponent takes special precautions a god dissappears when bloodied and hence cannot be killed at all. Most demonlords do not have this power, although Orcus has been killed several times and somehow he was resurrected again and again. Regardless, in 4E they removed class levels from monsters, and to be honest, it is a change I like. I also have no problems with the downgrade of the deities. Killing gods by semi-mortal heroes is part of mythology, and if you don't like such an aspect in your game you can always ignore it (or simply avoid epic levels ).

Personally I also feel that the more powerful demonlords of 4E actually fit the rajahs of Eberron much better then the versions of 3E.  They are on par with the gods in power, and more importantly, they all represent/focus on a specific aspect of corruption and evil something that can be used directly to detail the non-combat effects Keith mentions. I highly advice people playing 4E Eberron to take a look at the Demonomicon, and not just for the new demons. The Abyss itself might not be useful, but some of the new demonlords are very useful and the details on using demons in your campaigns (including demonic possessions) can certainly be applied to Eberron.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by lord_gore:

Did one of these actually get published, or is she just being drawn from my board posts?

I pulled it off the very first post of this thread, and I'm afraid I made the mistake to link her with Levistus. I'll update the table by removing the source and notes entries on Draal Khatuur. I'd appreciate a lot if you could give me her stats and domains so I can update the list.

Furthermore, I'll try to add the domains relevant to each Overlord, where applicable of course. This way DMs can understand how each Na-Vakhti influences the mortals.

The discorporation trait is something unique to the gods

As stated before, I don't know 4e rules.
But for the 3.5 rules, the real power behind the Overlords come from their Embodiment of Evil, Immortal Spirits, and Remote Sensing and Communication traits... And I just guess that's what puts them on a different level from the canon Archdevils and Demon Lords. They sound like demigods to me, but it's been a while since I opened the Deities and Demigods manual so I'm not so sure about it. And the domains feature just enforces it in my opinion: being able to shape the world around them with their "essences" is not something common, even for the lot of Orcus or Asmodeus.