Overshadowed by Elminster?

[Treebore]

I always use NPC's, always. Many of them are prior PC's of mine or of other players.

I even use them to save the party's bacon.

I got complaints. Once. I said, "OK, they didn't show up, and your now all dead. Roll up new PC's."

I have even used Elminster, and Khelben, etc... ?However, it was a meeting. I did not use them to save the party, or show them what truly powerful characters were. Except with Khelben, and the party thief stupid enough to try and steal his silver ware and gold decanters. A few days as a pig and missing out on a couple of encounters seemed to wizen that thief up pretty well.

I did have a player who got all bent out of shape because they went to Shadowdale and I mentioned they see the tower of the renowned Elminster of Shadowdale.

So I have to also wonder how many of these stories are actually a reflection of overly sensitive people. I have no doubt of the stories of heavy handedly used DMPC's, etc... I have seen it too. I have also been actually railroaded, etc... Just that I have also seen people determined to get offended, rather than actually being offended. So I have to wonder how many people were over shadowed simply because they felt like feeling over shadowed that day, rather than the DM truly trying to over shadow them.

Plus it can be a fine line too.

IF your using Faerun, or Greyhawk, as a setting, you probably know Elminster, DRizzt, Mordenkainen, Bigby, Melf, Vecna, etc... are out and about some where.

IT can actually be cool to meet some of these personages and "rub elbows" with them.

So when does it go from rubbing elbows to over shadowing?

Seems to be some pretty common criteria. You may be overshadowing PC's if:

1. The NPC saves the day while the PC's watch.

2. The DM goes on a long role play with himself with players watching while s/he describes the actions and words of NPC's that have nothing to do with furthering the goals of the PC's themselves. Its simply a show for the DM to show off their great acting skills. Not!


I am sure there are others.

Now what I would like to know is about those grey areas. So what if the DM has Drizzt come in and save the party? Assuming, of course, that the party was indeed going to die. Should the DM just let said party die? Or use the NPC's of the setting to keep them alive to fight another day?

After all, Drizzt is a good guy. IF he came upon such a battle, and his experienced eye told him these people would surely die, he would jump in and save them.

So is the game master wrong to prevent PC deaths? TPK's? With NPC's that are known to live in the world and could literally be anywhere within that world due to their current goals?

What about DMNPC's? IS it wrong to use my old mage as a "source" for PC's to buy stuff? After all, I actually played that wizard up to 22nd level and I do "know" what he has, and how he got it or made it. I don't need to roll any chances. I "know" what that NPC does and how he does things. I know how much time he spends making items. I know how politically involved he is. I know what he is and is not willing to do for the "good guys", such as the PC's.

So is this a bad DM NPC or a very well fleshed out NPC?

I also have a very powerful female Cleric named Jade, who travels around my campaign worlds with a very powerful retinue of followers. Jade is 17th level. She also has a relic/artifact that lets her know when people of "good" alignment are in mortal danger within a 500 mile radius of her personal location. Her followers range in levels from 8th to 12th level.

Should I not use a old PC practically destined to wander around the world saving good people in need? Especially when its a low level party of PC's who cannot afford to be raised form the dead yet?

Or should I keep my worlds flat and undefined and not have such NPC's around so that I don't risk having them feel overshadowed?

Or is not having DM NPC's travelling around with the party, and being actively played, and being higher level and more powerful than the PC's the only things you need to avoid doing?

I can personally see having an NPC around which a important story arc revolves around. The NPC will be there for every game session. The player of the NPC will not quit the game. NPC's are easier to keep alive than PC's.

So as long as the NPC is there, and used minimally to move the important story elment forward, I see it as a very good DM tool

So maybe this thread could be used to provide even more ideas and guide lines on how to successfully use camaping NPC's like Elminster and Khelben, as well as DM NPC's, because I know there are good uses for them. I have used them many times for over 25 years now. So how about even more people posting about the "right ways" to use these NPC's?

 

[Bumbles]

No, because: "that was long ago, and besides, the wench is dead."

Wait...does that mean Elminster is a necrophiliac?

 

[outsider]

I answered yes, because I played through the Time of Troubles modules back in the day. Those modules were TERRIBLE for having canon Forgetten Realms NPCs do everything while the pcs got to stand around watching.

People aren't just making this up. Anybody that played a decent amount of TSR modules around that time has probably seen it. I have the impression that the Dragonlance modules are pretty similar, but I've never played them myself. If you went by the official modules(which you'd think should be a good idea for newbie D&D players), it seemed like the Forgotten Realms was all about tagging along and watching the npcs do all the cool stuff.

If you can find it anywhere, go back and read the Time of Troubles modules. In the grand finale of Shadowdale, Elminster fights the avatar of Bane. In discussing player involvement in this scene it says the following: "No matter what the player characters do, the battle follows this general outline".

 

[megamania]

I've experienced it occasionally, but its been rare. Usually though its more of an individual DM's pet character rather than a figure from a setting's canon.

Many of the DMs I have dealt with have "favorites" that seem to always find artifacts or get divine intervention (like 3 natural 20's in a row).


In my own games I will drop names occationally but never have them appear.



(mainly since many of my players would defy alignment and kill said NPC just to mess with things)

 

[Belgarath]

I once had a character by the name of Garith. He was an illusionist and at times my DM freind would let me play him with a party that was much lower level than he was. The way I did it though was that he deliberately used either illusions or low level spells to help the group. Garith was a fairly strange person though. He ended up being very powerful

 

[Lurks-no-More]

So - based on the answers so far, it looks like this is a problem, though not necessarily on the level of "ordinary" DMPCs.

And it appears that TSR itself did its share of pushing this on the players, with some Dragonlance adventures, and the Time of Troubles modules. (Frankly, I don't think I've heard anything good about the ToT modules, even from people who liked the books/setting changes.)