Pathfinder 1E Paizo sets price of Pathfinder RPG PDF at $9.99!!!!!

[resistor]

I think we're waaaay overthinking the loss leader analogy.

The concept of loss leaders originates in the world of physical merchandise, where there is a (relatively) quantifiable cost-per-unit. In that scenario, it's pretty easy to say that a loss leader is a product sold at or below cost with the goal of encouraging the sale of other products with higher profit margins.

This is somewhat skewed when talking about the digital realm, since it's impractical to quantify an actual cost-per-unit. However, I think the spirit of the decision is the same: they are choosing to sell the PFRPG PDF for well below what they could be selling it for (the price the market would bear/the optimal point of the price-demand curve) in order to spur the sales of other, higher margin items, including the print version of the same book, as well as future splat books, the adventure paths, modules, merchandise, etc.

Arguing about whether it's a loss leader in the technical sense of sold-at-or-below-cost seems like missing the forest for the trees.

 

[AllisterH]

I think we're waaaay overthinking the loss leader analogy.

The concept of loss leaders originates in the world of physical merchandise, where there is a (relatively) quantifiable cost-per-unit. In that scenario, it's pretty easy to say that a loss leader is a product sold at or below cost with the goal of encouraging the sale of other products with higher profit margins.

This is somewhat skewed when talking about the digital realm, since it's impractical to quantify an actual cost-per-unit. .

????

Why wouldn't there be a cost per unit. Presumably as gameprinter points out, you're still paying people to create something for you ...the only difference I can see is that you won't have to sell as many copies and/or have a high price.

There are sunk costs in a PDF product but the only difference is that each copy of a PDF doesn't also have the costs of actual physical production.

Every unit sold would simply drive the cost per unit down until you actually eliminate the creation costs and everything sold after that was pure profit...

Of course, there's the issue of royalties as I know Harlan Ellison always "insists" artists (artists in the sense of creators of art be it books or actal art) should get a royalty style agreement where at the least, if a product proves to be wildly profitable, they get a cut of said proceeds.

 

[xechnao]

????

Why wouldn't there be a cost per unit.

Because units are infinite or not countable. There is cost of production but there is no cost per unit. Only if there was such a thing as "rate or intensity of sales" to be measured you could speak of cost per unit. But the rate of sales is so low to ever hinder the sales of other product so it is totally uninteresting to be bothering with for this matter.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

While I'm no expert, and I can offer suggested costs for the development of a single adventure module - since I'm working on my own publication, I am running face on to these costs for a module. I've got a sum upwards to $4,000. And we still haven't even calculated the cost of editing, proof reading, and page-layout, all based on hourly rates and variable cost per hour depending on quality and experience.

I see.

How many copies of this PDF do you expect to sell, through what venue, and at what price?

Why wouldn't there be a cost per unit? There are sunk costs in a PDF product but the only difference is that each copy of a PDF doesn't also have the costs of actual physical production. Every unit sold would simply drive the cost per unit down until you actually eliminate the creation costs and everything sold after that was pure profit...

For the Pathfinder RPG, those costs are all "sunk" in the hardcopy version.

The PDF sales from sale #1 should be pure profit. (It's certainly possible that Paizo is counting on a certain number of PDF sales.)

If they decided to sell the hardcopy at $10 a pop, THAT would be a loss leader.

 

[AllisterH]

Because units are infinite or not countable. There is cost of production but there is no cost per unit. Only if there was such a thing as "rate or intensity of sales" to be measured you could speak of cost per unit. But the rate of sales is so low to ever hinder the sales of other product so it is totally uninteresting to be bothering with for this matter.

Ok then, the better phrase would be cost per unit sold...Let's ignore pathfinder for a moment....As gameprinter mentions, you still have a cost to produce a PDF so why wouldn't you have a cost per unit sold?

 

[xechnao]

Ok then, the better phrase would be cost per unit sold...Let's ignore pathfinder for a moment....As gameprinter mentions, you still have a cost to produce a PDF so why wouldn't you have a cost per unit sold?

It depends on how many units you sell. The more units you will sell the lower the cost. Of course unit price will affect sales so it gets a bit more complicated. The problem is that you do not really know how unit price will affect sales. You can make an estimation and based on that estimation you may find the most profitable value of pricing. Furthermore timing is a factor that is always important. You could prefer less potential of profits in total but increased potential of more sales at launch and near launch to build up momentum or to grab liquid assets. In case it is not clear, momentum is very important in the competitive economy and especially in a stable market. In short, Paizo is the one who knows what they are doing in regards to their business and we do not.

 

[gamerprinter]

Sales speculation

I see.

How many copies of this PDF do you expect to sell, through what venue, and at what price?

Because I'm not the only decision maker on this project, I don't necessarily have hard numbers to offer just yet. But on speculation on prices the publisher I am working with has sold past PDF products.

I'm guessing the retail price for the adventure PDF to be $7.99 - there are two follow-up adventure modules to this mini-campaign arc, so the same for those as well.

Guessing on total numbers, is just that, a guess, because this is my first product, and with the weakened economy, I don't really know. I think a break-even point would be 1000 sales (still just a rough guess here.)

My goal is to sell 10,000 copies, with the possibility of less orders up front, but with positive reviews, more purchases when the second adventure is released will have more adventure one purchases, to eventually reach a 10,000 copy purchase by adventure 3 - again pure speculation here. While I'd love to have 100,000 sales - I'm trying to be a realist here.

My sales venue plans include placing it here in RPGNow, at the Paizo store (part of the agreement with the PFRPG Compatibility License for early printed manual.) Perhaps through RPGDrive-thru as well, Through Roleplayingtips.com newsletter in direct links to the main publishers website and/or my own Gamer-Printshop website - though I am sure I'll have a specific site for the setting on its own, and perhaps sell directly from that site instead.

In the fall I plan to create a splat book to the setting, while providing a free Lite version Alpha PDF, to be released with the first adventure.

These are my plans and perceptions anyway. Does that answer your question, Wulf? (I'll definitely be purchasing your product as well!)

GP

 

[aboyd]

Isn't it true that these days most successful modules sell 1000, and the wildly successful ones sell 10,000? I'm not sure you're likely to see more than 700 or 800 in sales, unless you're on board with a big ol' company like Paizo and what you're doing is about to become a new campaign path.

However, I'm just a failed writer who went into Web Engineering because writing didn't pay enough. So I really have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just basing my comment upon what I've heard from others, and my numbers could be way, way off.

 

[gamerprinter]

You may be right!

Isn't it true that these days most successful modules sell 1000, and the wildly successful ones sell 10,000? I'm not sure you're likely to see more than 700 or 800 in sales, unless you're on board with a big ol' company like Paizo and what you're doing is about to become a new campaign path.

However, I'm just a failed writer who went into Web Engineering because writing didn't pay enough. So I really have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just basing my comment upon what I've heard from others, and my numbers could be way, way off.

Your numbers might be right on, and I'm crazy to think I can get 10,000 sales, like I said, pure speculation in my numbers - I have no real idea.

I'm trying to somewhat "ride on the coat-tails" of Pathfinder, by republishing my initial OGL adventure and all subsequent adventures as PFRPG compatible - in that there are currently no Asian adventure paths, as well as no "Ravenloftian" style adventure paths either (my setting is both really.) With the near simulataneous release of Paizo's system, I'm hoping for some improved launch sales based on that alone - again, I could be completely off-base on this thinking.

Aside from commercial cartography, I am brand-new to this industry as a publisher and setting developer.

Edit: and regarding my numbers for Art costs, upon reflection, much of the art I'm purchasing now won't be in the modules, rather for the splat book, so the art costs are probably much lower and that $4000 total is probably too high - say $1500 total before page-layout is more realistic...

GP

PS: no doubt I will be getting a Lulu.com account for hard copies of the modules, plus I "intend" to create a hard-bound of my intended rules/setting splat - but I don't know that part of the industry yet, so I can't even speculate about that.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Your numbers might be right on, and I'm crazy to think I can get 10,000 sales, like I said, per speculation in my numbers - I have no real idea.

And that, with all due respect, is where you're going horrifically wrong. You obviously haven't done much in the way of even casual research, and that's a recipe for disaster. The notion that a first-time designer is going to sell 10,000 copies of an adventure is pure fantasy, and I don't mean of the D&D variety. (Yes, anything is possible, but you're doing the equivalent of basic a business plan on creating a top tier best-seller the first time out of the gate.)

I understand that this is a very difficult industry to get hard numbers, but you can at least get some basic ideas by seeing what's been said in public forums by people in the industry.