paladin divine challenge at the end of a turn?

[inati]

The fact that the power states as a qualifier "To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it," you have until the end of your turn to meet these conditions.

If it meant your next available turn, I would think it would not have the "end your turn" qualifier inside the rule at all. In fact, in most cases where they mean your next available turn, the designers write it as "until the end of your next turn."

 

[Dracollich]

mattdm's question is focused on what happens when a paladin marks a target at the end of his turn. What I feel is important here is the first line of the rule:
On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target.

The engaging a target part is applicable to only a foe that has already been challenged. So, in the case of paladin taking down a challenged foe in a round, he is able to use a minor action to challenge another foe elsewhere on the battlefield, whether or not any actions have been taken against it or if it is adjacent.

On the next round if the paladin fails to engage the challenged target or issue a new challenge, he is penalized by being unable to issue a challenge on his next turn.

It's the OR of that first line that is important. If no challenge has yet been issued, the engage the target part is not applicable. This does allow a paladin to mark a target and retreat a movement or two away to draw the foe through his buddies, but on his next turn he better unleash a ranged attack against the challenged foe, move next to it, challenge someone else, or else he loses the challenge and is unable to challenge the next round.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

Not true. 'On your turn' you must 'engage' the target - not 'on your turn, after you've marked them.'

Powers are not retroactive. Actions that occur before the power was activated are meaningless.

 

[Maxim Machinery]

mattdm's question is focused on what happens when a paladin marks a target at the end of his turn. What I feel is important here is the first line of the rule:
On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target.

Sigh, not this again. Yes, Divine Challenge ends when you fail to engage, or when you challenge another target. Thus, the Divine Challenge you used against your first target is now over, and any limitations it might apply to your actions are null and void. However, you have now used Divine Challenge against a (different) target, and are subject to all the limitations that entails, including the fact that this - new - Divine Challenge will end unless you:

A) Engage the second, new, target or;
B) Challenge another (third) target

As you can only use Divine Challenge once per turn, you cannot take option B in this scenario, and as it was your final action that turn, you can only qualify A if you are adjacent to your new target, or with an action point spent to attack it or move adjacent to it (unless you attacked it earlier in the turn).

The engaging a target part is applicable to only a foe that has already been challenged. So, in the case of paladin taking down a challenged foe in a round, he is able to use a minor action to challenge another foe elsewhere on the battlefield, whether or not any actions have been taken against it or if it is adjacent.

Emphasis mine. What makes you think that it is not also applicable to the new challenge target? You have activated your Divine Challenge power, - which, incidentally, ends the challenge you had on the previous target, if they were still alive - and are subject to all its drawbacks.

On the next round if the paladin fails to engage the challenged target or issue a new challenge, he is penalized by being unable to issue a challenge on his next turn.

Flase assumption. The power does not state 'you must engage the target before the end of your next turn,' it states you must engage it 'on your turn.' By using your last minor action to challenge a new target, you have successfully completed the ending condition for the first challenge, but the second one now requires you to engage the second target, or challenge a new, third target, which you cannot do until your next turn, due to the limitation on Divine Challenge's use.

Powers are not retroactive. Actions that occur before the power was activated are meaningless.

No rule states this. All it says is that I must 'on my turn' engage the target. If I attack, then Challenge, I have, indeed, engaged the target, 'on my turn.' In this case, powers are (or this power, at least, is), in fact, retroactive.

 

[Crosswind]

Err. Rules are, unfortunately, perfectly clear, Maxim, and they don't forbid a paladin from continually switching challenge on two targets that he doesn't engage.

At the end of a turn, the Paladin can: Engage a target that is currently challenged, or challenge somebody else.

To satisfy the "engaged" condition, he has to attack it or be next to it.

If neither "Engaging" nor "Challenging somebody else" happens, the marked condition ends, etc.

Therefore, so long as you're challenging somebody new every round, you're not obliged to ever engage anybody.

-Cross (I don't advocate this as something a DM should allow, but it's clearly what the rules state)

 

[DracoSuave]

Err. Rules are, unfortunately, perfectly clear, Maxim, and they don't forbid a paladin from continually switching challenge on two targets that he doesn't engage.

At the end of a turn, the Paladin can: Engage a target that is currently challenged, or challenge somebody else.

To satisfy the "engaged" condition, he has to attack it or be next to it.

If neither "Engaging" nor "Challenging somebody else" happens, the marked condition ends, etc.

Therefore, so long as you're challenging somebody new every round, you're not obliged to ever engage anybody.

-Cross (I don't advocate this as something a DM should allow, but it's clearly what the rules state)

Then the new target becomes 'The target you challenged.' A new condition kicks in and says you must either engage that target, or challenge a new one. You -can't- because you can only challenge once per turn, so the challenge drops. Challenging a new target will satisfy the -old- challenge, but the -new- challenge is a new application of the ability and is applied seperately.

Another way of looking at it:

You're against a goblin and a kobold. Kobold's challenged at the beginning of your turn, but has since shifted away, and you're immobilized.

DC on Kobold requires you to either engage Kobold or challenge a new foe.
You DC the goblin, satisfying the DC condition on Kobold.
DC on Goblin requires you to either engage the Goblin or challenge a new foe.
You can't go adjacent, and you can't reapply DC, so you -have- to ranged attack the goblin if you don't want to lose DC for a round.

 

[DracoSuave]

Powers are not retroactive. Actions that occur before the power was activated are meaningless.

Incorrect.

For example, the Gift of Life Paladin Utility is FULLY capable of looking back in time and seeing what's happened.

This isn't Magic: The Gathering, so the rules of -that- game hardly apply.

 

[FireLance]

The strict reading seems to me to imply that if you use the challenge as a minor action at the end of your turn from across the battlefield, it's wasted.

I agree that this is what the rules say.

However, the players argued that it makes sense for a paladin to make the challenge as they come charging across the battlefield towards the intended foe. "By the wrath of Kord, I come for you...."

However, I also agree with your players, so it's house rule time.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

For example, the Gift of Life Paladin Utility is FULLY capable of looking back in time and seeing what's happened.

First of all, that's an explicitly stated condition of the power. Secondly, "died since your last turn" is a current status.

 

[Maxim Machinery]

First of all, that's an explicitly stated condition of the power. Secondly, "died since your last turn" is a current status.

'Attacked the target on my turn' is a current status, until the end of my turn rolls by.