[Paladin mount questions] But the Lone Ranger never killed off Silver...

[Lord Pendragon]

Adding templates onto a mount like that sound rather abusive, quite frankly. With either the paladin's mount or leadership, the follwer/mount is still supposed to be no higher level than the PC. A heavy War Horse is cr2 +1 for celestial, +3 half celestial, +2 Paladin. That's a CR 8, which is significantly higher than the Cr of a 6th level paladin.

Keep in mind that you're adding the CR of the mount as a part of what's gained from the Leadership feat, which I'm not sure is fair. If the paladin simply acquired a celestial warhorse and a 5th-level fighter cohort, combining their CRs would also break the Leadership limit, but is perfectly legal and non-abusive. So do you consider the ability to combine two creatures (CR3 and CR5) into one CR8 creature abusive? In some ways, this is advantageous (the CR8 creature will be harder to kill). In other ways, this is detrimental (if it dies, you're out the whole CR8, and it can be killed with a single spell/attack, instead of two. And it only gets one action per round, instead of two.)

Still, you may be correct. If so, though, how would you handle it? Dragon cohorts set a precedent for combining a mount and cohort. How would you impliment this, for a paladin who doesn't want to wait until 15th-level so he can call a dragon?

[edit to add]: Also consider that DoTF considers waiting to be a form of payment for a mount. By waiting an extra level before calling his mount, the paladin is already entitled to the +1CR of the "celestial" template on a regular warhorse, or to have a griffon instead. Two levels and (s)he can have a unicorn. So I'm not sure the paladin should have to wait and burn a feat to improve his mount, only to wind up with something no more powerful than can be gained with the feat alone, minus mount or waiting.

 

[Rackhir]

Keep in mind that you're adding the CR of the mount as a part of what's gained from the Leadership feat, which I'm not sure is fair. If the paladin simply acquired a celestial warhorse and a 5th-level fighter cohort, combining their CRs would also break the Leadership limit, but is perfectly legal and non-abusive. So do you consider the ability to combine two creatures (CR3 and CR5) into one CR8 creature abusive? In some ways, this is advantageous (the CR8 creature will be harder to kill). In other ways, this is detrimental (if it dies, you're out the whole CR8, and it can be killed with a single spell/attack, instead of two. And it only gets one action per round, instead of two.)

Still, you may be correct. If so, though, how would you handle it? Dragon cohorts set a precedent for combining a mount and cohort. How would you impliment this, for a paladin who doesn't want to wait until 15th-level so he can call a dragon?

I understand what you are trying to do by combining the two and I agree that you should get something significantly better from combining the feat and the benefit, but having a CR 8 creature as a follower at 6th level is pushing things too far. Especially considering neither is supposed to let you have a follower of your Level or higher.

A CR 8 creature is far, far tougher than a CR3 and a CR5 creature put together. Relative to the CR 8 creature the CR 3 is insignificant and the CR 5 is bordering on it as well. CRs don't stack like that when adding two separate creatures together.

The more I think about it, the more I find the concept of boosting one with the other problematic. Leadership permits up to Lv-1 for a cohort and Paladin's mount is Lv-4. So I don't really see anyway to combine the two without screwing the player or permitting something far too powerful into the game. Especially, since a paladin is likely to have a sufficent charisma to permit a maximum level cohort.

If you are really keen on boosting your mount I would probably suggest taking levels in the Windrider Class from MotW. They get a ton of stuff for selecting better mounts and boosting them. Not to mention their spell list is superb and covers a lot of the most useful spells for combat types.

RE: Dragonss - To be perfectly honest, I don't think I would permit a dragon mount in a non-epic level campaign, unless the campaign was built around the concept (Dragon Calvary of Grehawk, etc...). At low ages they are too ineffective for the cost and at high ages they are way too powerful.

 

[Pax]

Still, you may be correct. If so, though, how would you handle it? Dragon cohorts set a precedent for combining a mount and cohort. How would you impliment this, for a paladin who doesn't want to wait until 15th-level so he can call a dragon?

Simple enough.

You might have to wait a bit longer. If your mount will end up being the same as a level 10 Cohort, you'll have to wait until you're a Level 11 character before you can have it.

But keep in mind, as I said above -- I treat the HD form beign a Paladin's Mount as BONUS HD, not as inherent HD, so THEY wouldn't count towards the leadership limit.

Which IMO only makes logical sense. Why would a creature, while NOT the Paladins special mount, but who COULD be JUST his cohort, suddenly refuse to be BOTH cohort AND mount, based on getting more powerful itself, out of the deal?

What I say to such a discontinuity is:

This ... is ... Chewbacca.

 

[Artoomis]

It's been quite a while since I looked at the Dragon mount rules - how does the combination of cohort and mount work?

Per DotF, how do they advance as both cohort and special mount?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

It's been quite a while since I looked at the Dragon mount rules - how does the combination of cohort and mount work?

Per DotF, how do they advance as both cohort and special mount?

DoTF has a table which describes the rate at which a dragon mount advances as a mount (which is later than other less powerful mounts). The question of what the dragon does with the half-share of XP it gets is never addressed. The cohort part of the equasion serves as a limiter on how soon a paladin can summon such a mount and how powerful that mount can be (i.e. a young bronze dragon is ECL 11 for the purposes of the Leadership feat, and thus cannot become a cohort [and thus a mount] until the paladin is at least 12th-level.)

For anyone with the DMG handy: DoTF references a chart on page 45 of the DMG that lists Unusual Cohorts, and says to use that as a guide for what sorts of creatures to allow as cohorts and at what cost. Can someone give me the rundown of that chart?

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that there are basically two paths to take here:

A) Wait until 6th, 7th, or 8th level, and get a more powerful paladin's mount as outlined in DoTF, with no feat cost.

B) Get an Unusual Cohort (as per pg45 of the DMG) and have it also serve as your mount. It must still be a legal cohort (per the Leadership rules) before Paladin Mount bonuses are applied. This costs a feat, but can provide you with a substantially more powerful mount, while subtracting a separate cohort.

Other thoughts?

 

[Spatzimaus]

The whole Mount situation is just screwed up, IMO. If you take the type of creature that was originally intended (a horse, for example), it's very vulnerable. Its hit points don't scale up as well as the Paladin's do, it doesn't get defensive abilities, and if the Paladin wants to equip it with magic items to make it more survivable, the cost comes out of his own pocket. To top it all off, it's a horse. Big critter, doesn't do well in dungeons.

So, then we get the "advanced Mount" rules from DotF. By waiting one level to get a Celestial mount, you get a much stronger creature, with all kinds of abilities to stay alive. SR, DR, Elemental resists, darkvision... all good stuff. And there's the problem. It becomes a no-brainer to wait for a better mount, which really ruins the concept for me.

Then there's the Dragon thing, with a huge logical inconsistency. If I can get an intelligent monster as a Cohort, AND it's being imbued with holy power by my god to increase its powers further, then why can't I play the monster? I mean really, the Dragon should be the PC, with a Paladin cohort.

IMC we designed a special Companion system that subsumed the Mount rules. Basically, a Paladin finds a nonmagical nonintelligent animal, vermin, or beast (no other types allowed), and it's imbued by his power every time he prays. As it increases in level, it starts getting pieces of templates (a LG Paladin gets bits of the Celestial and Axiomatic templates), until at around level 15 it's a Native Outsider. In general it's worked out far better than the old system.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The whole Mount situation is just screwed up, IMO. If you take the type of creature that was originally intended (a horse, for example), it's very vulnerable. Its hit points don't scale up as well as the Paladin's do, it doesn't get defensive abilities, and if the Paladin wants to equip it with magic items to make it more survivable, the cost comes out of his own pocket. To top it all off, it's a horse. Big critter, doesn't do well in dungeons.

I agree with you. Much as I want to have a mount, I worry about leaving it at the front door of the dungeon. I seem to remember a magic item somewhere that allows you to change your mount into a small figurine (like a pseudo-Figurine of Wondrous Power) for transport into a dungeon. (Anyone remember where this is from?) Still, that's one more item for the paladin to buy.

So, then we get the "advanced Mount" rules from DotF. By waiting one level to get a Celestial mount, you get a much stronger creature, with all kinds of abilities to stay alive. SR, DR, Elemental resists, darkvision... all good stuff. And there's the problem. It becomes a no-brainer to wait for a better mount, which really ruins the concept for me.

Well, this is true somewhat. But for some campaigns, the wait is really painful. In the one I'm starting, for instance, I'm not sure how long the campaign is going to last. So waiting for 8th-level to get the griffon mount can be a big deal, if there's a chance you'll never get to eighth level.

Then there's the Dragon thing, with a huge logical inconsistency. If I can get an intelligent monster as a Cohort, AND it's being imbued with holy power by my god to increase its powers further, then why can't I play the monster? I mean really, the Dragon should be the PC, with a Paladin cohort.

The power does still stem from the paladin, insofar as the mount loses those powers if the paladin and mount part. There's a warning in DoTF about the dragon possibly overshadowing the PC, though. Still, I like the idea of a paladin with an intelligent mount. As DoTF mentions, a paladin would treat a dragon mount as a partner, not a subservient. Partners against Evil!

When my paladin reaches 6th-level or so, I think I'm going to have to put together a "proposal" on how the mount system could work for me, and submit it for DM approval. Lots of the ideas in this thread are great ones I'd never thought of.