Paladin Variant Traits And Variant Aasimar Race Questions

[Nazhkandrias]

Racial Levels (Hit Die, but it's the same thing) are always counted as favored classes, and do not in any way restrict multiclassing.

That's in the SRD, Monsters as Characters. It is also in the MM? I think.

Are progression levels technically racial levels? It's more like completing the race than advancing it.

 

[irdeggman]

Are progression levels technically racial levels? It's more like completing the race than advancing it.

Technically (per the text in the Savage Progressions articles) they count as actual class levels.

I think they messed this up though and they should follow the MM racial level rules (that is they always count as favored classes).

The other way to look at it is that the racial levels (from the articles) only serve as a means to take the LA race at lower levels. Essentially for an aasimar at 2nd level using the +1 LA or the single racial class yields the exact same benefits. The +1 LA doesn't factor in to multiclassing formulas so neither should using teh racial levels, IMO.

When in doubt, ask your DM.

 

[Arkhandus]

The race is a bit too strong as-is, and really more suitable for a Cleric than a Paladin. Ya gotta take away something from the race, and not an insignificant something. Probably one of the ability score boosts or something, like the darkvision and skill bonuses, or somesuch. Also, if they're more human than a normal aasimar, it may be that they should just belong to the Humanoid type, with the Human subtype (since aasimar are humans with some celestial bloodline mixed in).

Can't comment on the class stuff.

 

[Nazhkandrias]

The race is a bit too strong as-is, and really more suitable for a Cleric than a Paladin. Ya gotta take away something from the race, and not an insignificant something. Probably one of the ability score boosts or something, like the darkvision and skill bonuses, or somesuch. Also, if they're more human than a normal aasimar, it may be that they should just belong to the Humanoid type, with the Human subtype (since aasimar are humans with some celestial bloodline mixed in).

Can't comment on the class stuff.

Well, on the subject of the whole Native Outsider issue... like Dragonblood or Dragon, the Outsider quality is dominant over almost any other trait (as in genetics). The Dragonblood subtype is still in play MANY generations after ALL Draconic influence has left the family or species (Kobolds, for example, or descendents of a Half-Dragon - they're often Draconic), and the Draconic influence can be felt for many more generations after the Dragonblood subtype is gone (Sorcerers). The same goes for Outsiders. An Aasimar's family tree looks like this - Celestial and Human, Half-Celestial and Human, then Aasimar for MANY generations. This race is simply the effects of time on bloodline, dilluting the blood enough to weaken powers, but not enough to remove the Outsider subtype (which could persist for many generations more).

Oh, and I've settled on the name Faded Aasimar.

Now, final idea on racial traits...

- Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Cha.
- Size and Type: Medium Outsider (Native)
- Speed: 30 feet.
- Low-Light Vision.
- Spell-like Ability: Light (1/Day) as a 1st-level caster or a caster of his class levels, whichever is higher.
- +1 to Listen and Spot checks. +1 to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
- Energy Resistance: Acid 2, Electricity 2, Cold 2.
- Automatic Languages: Common and Celestial. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Sylvan.
- Favored Class: Paladin.

The Darkvision fades with time, degenerating into the less-useful low-light vision. The Wisdom bonus disappears entirely, the resistances decline, and the Listen and Spot checks are halved (replaced with Diplomacy and Gather Information bonuses, for the same reasons as half-elves; personable, likeable, able to empathize).

This is more or less identical to the LA +0 Aasimar as found in the progressions article, except Darkvision is replaced and the bonuses to Listen and Spot are partially replaced by the more sensible Diplomacy and Gather Information.

I see few ways that anyone can complain at this, as it's slightly weaker than the Savage Progression Aasimar (lack of Darkvision) and had two very important skill bonuses halved and replaced by less important skill bonuses. It's just a toned-down LA +0 Aasimar without the ability to take a Racial Level, and it has a little more in-game flavor.

And one extra question - my character is going to be an EXCELLENT and devoted devilslayer (for in-game usefulness and in a roleplaying sense) and I was wondering... if you were DM, would you let me pay a little extra (more than the normal cost) to get my Sword of Celestia weapon silvered? In the end (assuming I make it to such a high level, and by high I mean like level 20), this Sword of Celestia would look something like this...

+5 Holy Chaotic Silvered Shocking Burst Halberd of Fiendbane (+5 Enhancement Bonus, Silvered, Chaotic-Aligned, Holy [+2], Shocking Burst [+2], Bane against Evil Outsiders [+1]).

Pretty sweet, huh? The PERFECT thing for a Pit Fiend! And yes, my DM says that fighting devils is fairly central to our campaign, so NO evil characters (and it gave me a jump start to design this character). And for the love of all things holy, can someone please point out some logical way to organize the names of magic items like this? Something more fluid and less verbose, perhaps? I might just name the weapon...

 

[irdeggman]

Outsiders don't get low light vision - they get dark vision so even diluting the type via even more generations doesn't justify that kind of change. Dark vision is entirely different than low light vision, so attempting to have low light vision be a degenerate form of dark vision is gaming the system to achieve balance and not to maintain the theme of the race that it started from.

There are types that have both dark vision and low light vision. {See Archon for an example}.

I mean why not simply that the +1 LA aasimar since the PC is starting at high enough level to acquire something akin to +5 Holy Chaotic Silvered Shocking Burst Halberd of Fiendbane (+5 Enhancement Bonus, Silvered, Chaotic-Aligned, Holy [+2], Shocking Burst [+2], Bane against Evil Outsiders [+1])? {or least wishful thinking/shopping}

Here is the LA +0 version from the Savage Progressions article:

Aasimar Base Racial Features
All of the following are base racial abilities for the aasimar.
Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Charisma.
Outsider Type: Aasimar are native outsiders. Thus, they are vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but immune to effects that target other types. For example, an aasimar would be subject to the extra damage from an outsider bane sword but immune to hold person, since that spell affects only humanoids.
Size: Aasimar are Medium size.
Speed: Aasimar base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision (Ex): An aasimar has darkvision to a 60-foot range.
Light (Sp): The aasimar may use light (caster level equals aasimar's character level) once per day.
Skill Bonuses: An aasimar has a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
Resistances (Ex): An aasimar starts play with resistance 2 to acid, cold, and electricity.
Automatic Languages: Celestial, Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Sylvan.
Favored Class: Paladin. A multiclass aasimar's paladin class does not count when determining whether an experience point penalty applies.


So what are the differences between the two?

A +1 to four skills instead of a +2 to two

Low light vision instead of Dark vision

Now the race is overall balanced, but it is really not an off-shoot of an aasimar.

I just don't see the reason for doing this except maybe you can't help but want to "tweak" things. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it is a common addiction for gamers

 

[irdeggman]

Pretty sweet, huh? The PERFECT thing for a Pit Fiend! And yes, my DM says that fighting devils is fairly central to our campaign, so NO evil characters (and it gave me a jump start to design this character). And for the love of all things holy, can someone please point out some logical way to organize the names of magic items like this? Something more fluid and less verbose, perhaps? I might just name the weapon...

I'm running a c.g. ranger/warlock whose favored enemy is evil outsiders (demon hunter). Themeatically wise it works real well. Mechanic wise, well it is weak.

 

[Nazhkandrias]

So what are the differences between the two?

A +1 to four skills instead of a +2 to two

Low light vision instead of Dark vision

Now the race is overall balanced, but it is really not an off-shoot of an aasimar.

I just don't see the reason for doing this except maybe you can't help but want to "tweak" things. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it is a common addiction for gamers

Oooh... I missed that Darkvision one. Good catch! Thanks for that. Well then, I suppose that I will have to supress that urge to tweak... Difficult, true, but I LOVE TO TWEAK!!! Well, then, I'll keep the Darkvision.

However, I like the idea of the stats not so much diminishing, but changing. Aasimar are so devoted to goodness that they tend to be loners, whearas a Faded Aasimar loses a lot of that divine influence (hence the less keen senses), but becomes more likable towards people (hence the more social stat bonuses). The only reason Aasimar don't typically fit in is because they are so devoted to a cause (sort of like Elven aloofness). I mean, come on! They're charismatic, wise, attractive, divine... the only thing keeping them from great social skills is the fanatical goodness. The fanaticism diminishes as generations pass, giving way to more goodness and less zealotry, resulting in an equally charismatic and attractive individual with better social skills. It's pretty much like the difference between elves and half-elves.

Oh, and naturally, since this race isn't full-blooded Aasimar, a player cannot take a Racial Level to get full Aasimar benefits (makes this race feel less like a gimped Aasimar and more like a Core Race).

Well, that satisfies my urge to tweak. Stats edited for zesty flavor, race is balanced, and only one question remains - I'm big on roleplaying, backstory, and overall storytelling in a campaign. An Aasimar is descended from a celestial ancestor, but the MM doesn't specify any sort of celestial in particular - in fitting with my Chaotic Good alignment, I was thinking of having my original celestial ancestor be an Eladrin.

However, an Aasimar's resistances are closer to that of an Angel's resistances (Angels are immune to acid, cold, and petrification, with resistance to electricity and fire). The acid, cold, and electricity bonuses remain in Aasimar and all celestial creatures, but Eladrin lack resistance to acid, instead being resistant to fire. As a flavor issue, would it be wise to replace the acid resistance with fire resistance? Once again, it's simply a flavor issue, so I don't have some moron saying <annoying voice> "Hey! Eladrin don't have acid resistance!" </annoying voice>

And no, I'm not going in at first level with a +10 weapon. I like to make longterm goals, so I can make stat, skill, and feat decisions with the end in mind. Somebody who just throws together a ramshackle, poorly coordinated mess of feats, skills, and equipment might succeed, but their chances would be better if they planned ahead! And yes, I am prone to wishful thinking... *Unholy Dancing Vorpal Greatsword*

I'm running a c.g. ranger/warlock whose favored enemy is evil outsiders (demon hunter). Themeatically wise it works real well. Mechanic wise, well it is weak.

Why is it weak? I'm in a campaign that is likely to have a good amount of devils in it. If that still makes it weak, I'll probably just take off the bane and shocking burst abilities and throw in Speed.

Again, thank you all for your help! This really has helped me to come up with a potentially great character! Needless to say, I will be ticked if my DM decides to off me at first level.

 

[Nifft]

My thoughts (may be too late):

- Darkvision: is great. For Rogues and other sneaky types. Tieflings need it; you do not. Replace with:
+ Light (Sp): As the spell, targeting self only, at will. Caster level = character level.
... because Paladins are all about sharing the light with their party, not about sneaking through the darkness.

+ Outsider (Native): is fantastic. It's really, really amazing. You can't be charmed by charm person! You can't be held by hold person! You are immune to all sorts of icky things. Don't downplay the coolness or power of this trait. Especially in conjunction with alter self. You're also immune to most Outsider effects unless you pick up an alignment or energy subtype. It's a net gain, and a big one.

+ Energy Resistance: seems pretty key to me. Resistance 2 is kinda weak, though, and too easily forgotten. I'd grant resistance 5 but only against one energy type (chosen at character creation).

+ Spot & Listen: are certainly good, but IMHO Sense Motive is more in character for the race.


So here's my Faded Aasimar:


Faded Aasimar
Medium Outsider (Native, Augmented Human)
Speed: 30 ft.
Human Blood: for all effects related to race, a Faded Aasimar is considered a Human.
Light (Sp): At will, caster level = character level, targeting yourself only.
+1 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks.
Celestial Resistance (Ex): Choose one of the following energy types: cold, acid, electricity. You gain racial energy resistance 5 against the chosen type.
Languages: Common and Celestial. Bonus languages: Infernal, Abyssal, Ignan, Aquan, Terran, Auran.
Favored Class: Paladin.


... but I'd also allow the character to pimp his race with a Racial Paragon class:

Aasimar Aspirant
Prereq: Faded Aasimar race
HD: d8
Skills: 2 + Int -- Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

[u]
L   BAB    F / R / W    Special[/u]
1    +0   +0 /+0 /+2    Improved Resistance, Improved Companion
2    +1   +0 /+0 /+3    Smite Evil +1/day
3    +2   +1 /+1 /+3    Improved Resistance, Wis +2
4    +3   +1 /+1 /+4    Celestial Apotheosis, [i]Daylight[/i] 1/day, Cha +2

• Improved Resistance (Ex): At 1st level, your Celestial Resistance racial bonus improves. You gain racial energy resistance 5 to one of acid, cold, or electricity (to which you do not already have racial energy resistance). At 3rd level you gain resistance to the third type.
• Improved Companion (Ex): If you have a familiar, special mount, or animal companion, your Paragon levels stack with whatever other levels you have to determine your companion's abilities. At 4th level, your companion gains the Celestial template.
• Smite Evil (Su): Just like the Paladin special ability. If you have or later gain Paladin levels, add your Paragon levels and your Paladin levels to determine the effectiveness of all your Smite Evil attempts.
• Celestial Apotheosis: For effects pertaining to race, you are considered either an Outsider (Good) or a Humanoid (Human), whichever would be most favorable. So you are mostly immune to the Bane special ability, unless the weapon targets both Humanoids and Outsiders (with the appropriate subtypes).
• Daylight (Sp): 1/day, as the spell, caster level = character level.
• Ability Increase: As though gained through level advancement.

This way you're balanced at level 1, and very Aasimar-like if you go into the Paragon class.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nazhkandrias]

Well, I won't lie, I like the Paragon class! But, for the purposes of this particular character, I'm really just subbing a little from the WotC article. Darkvision is going to have to stay (inherent in all celestials), and I fail to see where you got the Human blood thing. I don't think that many things require you to be human, and having that trait heavily conflicts with the Native Outsider trait (Native Outsider says Hold Person is a no, Human says Hold Person is a yes).

Being able to cast a spell-like ability (no matter how mundane or simple) an infinite amount of times per day is overpowered no matter how you look at it. Take light, for example. You'll never need a torch. Non-magical darkness is never an issue. Light-sensitive monsters are a piece of cake. See what I mean?

As for skills, it's almost identical to the elf and half-elf scenario - senses are not as sharp, but social interaction is better, as the character is more "human-like"; hence, reduced senses (Spot and Listen) and better social aspects (Gather Information and Diplomacy). I'm inclined to stay with the ones I put down.

As for the resistances... yes, 2 to each is small and may seem insignificant, but so do many racial traits. Racial traits aren't meant to be earth-shaking (the dwarf's +2 to Appraise is nice, but not amazing) - they're more for flavor, if you ask me. +5 may not be as useful in as many situations, but at low levels, the character can essentially tear through low level monsters of the selected resistance type. And flavor-wise, it doesn't make too much sense that some of the resistances disappear entirely, and one stays at full strength. A gradual weakening makes a bit more sense to me. 2 to all of those resistances isn't enough to get major notice, but it can take the edge off of a few attacks at lower levels, and it hints at a celestial heritage.

But I mean it, I REALLY like the Paragon class! If the other players take interest in the Faded Aasimar race (I can think of one who will probably love it and come up with a cleric or bard right away), then I'll be sure to show them the Paragon class. Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[Nifft]

I fail to see where you got the Human blood thing. I don't think that many things require you to be human, and having that trait heavily conflicts with the Native Outsider trait (Native Outsider says Hold Person is a no, Human says Hold Person is a yes).

That's half right. Hold Person applies to a type -- Humanoid. You are an Outsider, and therefore immune. But a Human Bane weapon would hurt you, for sure. (Until Celestial Apotheosis, which the Paragon class grants.) You're not likely to see a Human-bane weapon at level 1, but you may well run into some Favored Enemy (Human) monstrous rangers.

You are also qualified for Human-specific feats like Able Learner (from Races of Destiny).

Being able to cast a spell-like ability (no matter how mundane or simple) an infinite amount of times per day is overpowered no matter how you look at it. Take light, for example. You'll never need a torch. Non-magical darkness is never an issue. Light-sensitive monsters are a piece of cake. See what I mean?

You don't need a torch if you have Darkvision -- non-magical darkness is never an issue. Since I took that away, it's balanced. Light-sensitive monsters are dazzled by daylight, not mere light -- no worries there. And putting a big neon sign on yourself? Way less sneaky than Darkvision. But very Paladin-like, IMHO.

I'm inclined to stay with the ones I put down.

Of course. We all like our own work. But consider that the type benefits that the Faded Aasimar gets is much better than the immunity to sleep and resistance to Enchantments that a Half-Elf gets.

As for the resistances... yes, 2 to each is small and may seem insignificant, but so do many racial traits.

Balance isn't my only concern; I personally would forget about two points of energy resistance to three uncommon energy types. But resistance 5 vs. one energy type? I can remember that. And 5 is a standard amount.

And flavor-wise, it doesn't make too much sense that some of the resistances disappear entirely, and one stays at full strength.

Eh, it's magic. You happen to be the great-great-great grandson of the thunderbolt angel (who carries the thunderbolts of Lord Zeus); so you resist a little lightning. As you take the Paragon levels, you more fully explore and realize the general Angelic nature of your blood. Or whatever.

But I mean it, I REALLY like the Paragon class! If the other players take interest in the Faded Aasimar race (I can think of one who will probably love it and come up with a cleric or bard right away), then I'll be sure to show them the Paragon class. Thanks for the suggestions!

The Paragon class is not balanced if you don't weaken the starting race down to LA +0.

Cheers, -- N