D&D 5E Paladin: Why Are They Often Considered Highly Powerful?

[CapnZapp]

How is that "Paladin"? You've just described a primary sorcerer with levels in three other classes, which doesn't even "come on line" until mid-levels. Surely that can't be why people say "Paladins" are so effective.

People describe characters by the class they took first.

Still, a single-classed Paladin is brutally effective with a huge Nova capacity.

He just took it to eleven, by mentioning all the most common multi-class combos.

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[Dausuul]

I don't think anyone cares about this. They're a fighter type. Pretty much all the classes can achieve a good armor class if they want, and get the at-will damage they want. No biggie here.

A cleric who wants to do full damage with attacks has to invest in Strength, which is not otherwise very useful for a cleric; a wizard who wants a strong AC has to invest in Dexterity, which comes at the cost of investing in Constitution (probably the wizard's second most important stat after Int). And pity the poor bladelock.

Paladins are in the "martial club" of classes who get strong AC and full damage without having to pay a price outside their primary stat. Of course, the martial club has several other members; the point is that this is a strong baseline to start from.

A few claims in here. First, smites that go off twice per round. It's a limited resource applicable only to when you hit with a weapon, which isn't by definition twice a round. It is limited by spell slots as well, and you don't get a whole lot of spell slots. The actual damage from the smite isn't itself more than what spells can do, and in fact it's on average less from the smite itself. For the obvious example, a 3rd level spell slot used for a smite is 4d8 (average 18) and to only one target. A fireball of the same spell slot is 8d6 (28) and to many many targets. Even if the targets save, they're still taking almost the same damage as the smite (which again is only one target).

As for crits, they're quite rare, and usually already over-damaging the target beyond their hit point total.

This is kind of missing the point. Of course you don't smite on every hit - you'd run out of spell slots very fast if you did. But when you're up against the Big Boss and you need to do all the damage, you can nova so hard it makes the wizard jealous. Furthermore, if you have a source of advantage, you're likely to crit at least once per fight, and you can choose to throw a top-level slot into that crit after you see the 20.

That does leave the question of how to reliably get advantage against a boss monster, though... oh, what's that you say? There's a paladin subclass that lets you give yourself advantage against one target for the entire fight? Well then.

And then you add the passive abilities - most especially the saving throw bonus, which is just nuts - and the assorted minor powers. It all adds up. What you end up with is a class that can stand nearly level with the fighter on an ongoing basis ("martial club" baseline plus save bonus, healing, assorted minor abilities), and then add the ability to Smite Nova. And your favored secondary stat is highly useful in noncombat situations.

 

[Mort]

I wish people would stop with the analysis in a vacuum.

Yes the paladin has extremely good nova capability and adds a lot to the party with its auras.

But, it's not like other classes bring nothing to the table.

Take barbarian. Everyone always talks about the bear totem and yes, it's quite good. But what about the wolf barbarian? At 3rd level, he can give ALL party members (and other friendlies too) advantage against a target he's next to (and he can take standing next to heavy hitters just fine), from melee or range! That's as good or better than anything the paladin brings to the table right there.

I don't think it's even worth enumerating how wizards and clerics stack up against the paladin.

As for classes that might lag (say the champion fighter), I'd say the challenge should be bringing that class up to the paladin's level not dragging the paladin down.

I'm not going to argue the paladin isn't top tier in this edition, but to argue all other classes pale beside it is ludicrous.



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[cbwjm]

What now? You mean from higher level spell slots? As mentioned above, that's not actually a very good payoff for those higher level slots sometimes.

The paladin's level 11 damage upgrade is from improved divine smite which adds in an extra d8 to every weapon strike. This is probably what they mean when talking about the extra d8.

Personally, I'm not sure what the big fuss is about the paladin. They're good but I don't think I'd consider them overpowered. Mind you, I've only really seen low-level paladins so could be missing out on all this power. I'm also less inclined than others to think that a class is overpowered just because there are some multiclass builds that can combine for good effect.

 

[Stalker0]

I think the paladin hits 4 key areas:

1) the flash. Regardless of how strong a paladin actually is, when you see a paladin smite on a crit...jaws drop at the table. He could be a total loser the rest of the time...but that moment is what people remember.

2) party buffer: a party is just that much better with a paladin, and it’s a noticeable effect. The save bonus is just amazing...even works on death saves!

3) hits every pillar. Combat of course. Top social skills. Has a great mount to use for exploration.

4) the most self reliant martial class. While DND is a party centric game...players always love a class that doesn’t “need” the party.

A paladin has amazing defense and offense, great saves, can heal themselves, and has spells for utility. They don’t have a lot of weaknesses, very well rounded in all areas

 

[Mistwell]

A cleric who wants to do full damage with attacks has to invest in Strength, which is not otherwise very useful for a cleric; a wizard who wants a strong AC has to invest in Dexterity, which comes at the cost of investing in Constitution (probably the wizard's second most important stat after Int). And pity the poor bladelock.

Paladins are in the "martial club" of classes who get strong AC and full damage without having to pay a price outside their primary stat. Of course, the martial club has several other members; the point is that this is a strong baseline to start from.

Nope, now you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. The post I am responding to says, repeatedly and with emphasis, that charisma is important. In fact it lists take the charisma bonus up to 5. So either they also have this issue or else that save bonus emphasis almost goes away. Can't have it both ways.

This is kind of missing the point. Of course you don't smite on every hit - you'd run out of spell slots very fast if you did.

On the contrary, he made it clear they do this twice per round. It's pretty darn crucial to point out the major limiting factor on that. He didn't though. He made a claim they were uber powerful for doing this, without bothering to mention what you are mentioning. That it's purely a nova-only tactic which exhausts their very limited resources to do it.

But when you're up against the Big Boss and you need to do all the damage, you can nova so hard it makes the wizard jealous. Furthermore, if you have a source of advantage, you're likely to crit at least once per fight, and you can choose to throw a top-level slot into that crit after you see the 20.

Literally zero portions of his post focused on a big boss fight, or even mentioned how it's a nova specialist. He spoke as if that IS the paladin, all the time, it's what they do for "fights" and not "a fight", and he even compared it to the rogue as if they both do their "thing" all the time for all fights. Failing to point out the nature of this ability is my point. It's not me who is missing that point here.

That does leave the question of how to reliably get advantage against a boss monster, though... oh, what's that you say? There's a paladin subclass that lets you give yourself advantage against one target for the entire fight? Well then.

Just more "one boss fight" stuff which had zero to do with the post I was replying to. Let's not make this discussion a series of moving targets. You knew the context of the conversation you were jumping into. A nova-class versus an always-on class comparison can be done but there is a balancing factor between those two natures of those classes. He's not mentioning any of that issue.

And then you add the passive abilities - most especially the saving throw bonus, which is just nuts

And so now YOU do the contradiction as well. Make up your mind - is the paladin a single-stat guy, or a multi-stat one? Does he need Str/Dex and Con and Charisma, or what? Pick a position.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Most people mention smites, but I think the one feature that is really too good is Aura of Protection. If you look around, its rather difficult to increase your saving throws in 5e, or gain proficiency in saves that you are not already proficient in. One way is to take Resilient feat, but it only applies to one ability score of your choice. The most comparable feature is Monk's Diamond Soul, which grants proficiency in all saving throws. But the monk gets it at level 14, while the paladin gets it at level 6. Also, Diamond Soul only benefits the monk himself, but the paladin's version is an aura.

The aura's in general are crazy good and guaranteed to work with no chance of failure, as long as you are conscious. By level 10, if you are a Devotion Paladin, you are immune to Disease, Charmed, Frightened, and have +3 to +5 to all your saves. You are not immune to Poisoned, but it only cost 5hp of Lay on Hands to remove it. Its pretty ridiculous.

I played an AL game recently with a guy who has a 20th level devotion paladin. The rest of our characters were no slouches but his divine aura was literally the linchpin of our success. It was the difference between victory and having our lives snuffed out in just a couple of rounds.

 

[Mort]

I think the paladin hits 4 key areas:

1) the flash. Regardless of how strong a paladin actually is, when you see a paladin smite on a crit...jaws drop at the table. He could be a total loser the rest of the time...but that moment is what people remember.

That's a key point. People remember the highs more than anything else and it tends to color their perceptions.

I seem to recall, from one of your earlier threads actually, that paladin does not hold the crown for survivability - that honor goes to the barbarian.

Now the paladin makes up for it with raising up the party (auras and such) and general good performance across tiers. It's a well designed class that way, but I don't think over powered is the correct term.


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[Guest 6801328]

Smite does a bucket-load of damage on a crit. Take few levels of fighter and you crit on 19-20. Then take a couple levels of barbarian and you attack with advantage all the time. Then take the rest of your levels as sorcerer and you have lots of spell slots to use for smiting. While this is happening take the Defense fighting style, put on some plate armor and sling a shield and you have a decent armor class. And if you play your cards right you have a nice Charisma bonus that provides one of the best buffs in the game.

So in other words...Paladin/Fighter/Barbarian/Sorcerer multiclass is overpowered?

 

[ccs]

As for crits, they're quite rare,

You figure this how? The last time I checked I had the same 5% chance to roll that 20 as I did any other # on the d20.