D&D 5E Paring the skill list

[Kobold Stew]

Thanks, all for the feedback so far:

Here is an updated list of suggestions, taking the ideas in this thread into account. Bold indicates change from the original proposal.

1. roll Drive into Ride.
2. roll Balance into Tumble.
3. roll Spot and Listen together (as Perception)
4. Roll Search into Track
5. Eliminate Knowledge: Heraldry
6. Make Perform a cascade skill, requiring choice of instrument or technique.
6.1. The Background trait remains as a general performance ability to make a living performing day-to-day.
7. Roll Disguise into Bluff
7.1. Additionally, have a Rogue Skill trick that emulates the Disguise self spell.
8. (keep Heal as is)
9. Make Knowledge: Warfare not a knowledge skill, but one of leadership and tactics (Profession: tactician?).

10. I'd also like to make it a requirement that every background (even customized ones) have at least one Knowledge or Profession or Perform skill attached to it.

Comments:
3: I understand the desire to eliminate them altogether, but there needs to be something to counter Sneak. I had considered a feat ("Perception") that would give advantage on Wisdom checks vs. Sneak, but the math still favours the high-level rogue too much. Is there a way around this?

5: I take Darren's point that it is important (and specialist) knowledge in medieval times, but the application still feels too narrow. Has there ever been a published adventure where Heraldic knowledge has been required, and a History check (or the equivalent) would not be applicable?

7: The description does that already, pretty much.

In my mind, this is improved (so thanks!). Does anyone see a clear way to balance no spot and listen skills at all (on the one hand) and the escalating ability to sneak (on the other)?

 

[Derren]

5: I take Derren's point that it is important (and specialist) knowledge in medieval times, but the application still feels too narrow. Has there ever been a published adventure where Heraldic knowledge has been required, and a History check (or the equivalent) would not be applicable?

My take on it would be that Knowledge Heraldry should not only help you to identify the coat of arms of nobles, but also should provide insight in the net of marriages between nobles, who is vassal to whom and who holds which title. The latter one would overlap with Knowledge History a bit.

If an adventure/campaign uses this knowledge is a separate issue. It would be nice if the DMG would contain a chapter about medieval politics/feudalism which touches up the importance of such things.

 

[Szatany]

Thanks, all for the feedback so far:

Here is an updated list of suggestions, taking the ideas in this thread into account. Bold indicates change from the original proposal.


3. roll Spot and Listen together (as Perception)

Only the ideas that are to your liking I see. Many people suggested that perception should not be a skill at all.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

My take on it would be that Knowledge Heraldry should not only help you to identify the coat of arms of nobles, but also should provide insight in the net of marriages between nobles, who is vassal to whom and who holds which title. The latter one would overlap with Knowledge History a bit.

If an adventure/campaign uses this knowledge is a separate issue. It would be nice if the DMG would contain a chapter about medieval politics/feudalism which touches up the importance of such things.

This is what Knowledge (nobility) did in 3.X. I like using the term heraldry, though. It serves as a reminder of just how important the symbolism was to the noble houses.

 

[DEFCON 1]

See, I'd just remove the "Knowledge" part of "Knowledge - Heraldry" or "Knowledge - Nobility". The skill should just be "Nobility"... because that way it applies not only to INT checks to the knowledge of heraldry and noble lines and noble history... but also to CHA checks when dealing with nobles, lords and ladies... and WIS checks when sensing the motives of them as well.

Any skill that is listed as a Knowledge is better served whenever possible to make the category more open so that it can apply to multiple Ability checks besides just INT.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Only the ideas that are to your liking I see. Many people suggested that perception should not be a skill at all.

I've read all the ideas, and I'm convinced -- I'd really like to get rid of perception altogether. As I said in the post (41), though, without any perception skill then stealth continues to outdistance a straight-up Wisdom check. And, as I said in the post, I was looking for a way around that.

Do you have one?

I'm looking for ideas, not snark. The arguments for a straight wisdom perception roll are excellent, except for the opposed stealth roll. Let's work to find a solution!

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I've read all the ideas, and I'm convinced -- I'd really like to get rid of perception altogether. As I said in the post (41), though, without any perception skill then stealth continues to outdistance a straight-up Wisdom check. And, as I said in the post, I was looking for a way around that.

Do you have one?

I'm looking for ideas, not snark. The arguments for a straight wisdom perception roll are excellent, except for the opposed stealth roll. Let's work to find a solution!

The easy solution would be to make stealth not be a skill either. The stealth rules already require conditions that provide some place to hide. Instead of stealth skill, it's just a Dexterity check, but the rogue has some features that let him make the attempt where others could not.

 

[Szatany]

I've read all the ideas, and I'm convinced -- I'd really like to get rid of perception altogether. As I said in the post (41), though, without any perception skill then stealth continues to outdistance a straight-up Wisdom check. And, as I said in the post, I was looking for a way around that.

Do you have one?

I'm looking for ideas, not snark. The arguments for a straight wisdom perception roll are excellent, except for the opposed stealth roll. Let's work to find a solution!

Sorry if I sounded offensive. It wasn't my intention to offend you. I gave it some thought and maybe a way to go is to divide "perception" into skills but not from the standpoint of particular senses. So we could have skills like:
Alertness - use your perception to spot dangers before its too late (this includes opposed stealth checks)
Investigate - use your perception to notice things that are out of place (this combines old search and sense motive)
Track - no change

In this case you don't have a skill for how good your eyes (spot) or ears (listen) are. Your eyes could be good at one thing but bad at another, just like in real life.

 

[Szatany]

The easy solution would be to make stealth not be a skill either. The stealth rules already require conditions that provide some place to hide. Instead of stealth skill, it's just a Dexterity check, but the rogue has some features that let him make the attempt where others could not.

But then we're getting dangerously close to removing skills altogether.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

But then we're getting dangerously close to removing skills altogether.

Skills are supposed to be an optional module. Stealth and Perception are both core to the game, so perhaps it would be best if we excluded them entirely from the skill module.