Party just doesn't work

[Ant]

But most of the times I'm more like:" Better not play the monsters to the fullest now..."

Keep playing monsters to their fullest. Up the ante. Make them learn that if they don't work together, there will be PC deaths.

The issue with lagging combat and players taking too long is ultimately the DM's responsibility. You have to keep it moving. I'm not afraid to resort to a real-time countdown to help get a player's creative juices going. Nothing like working under pressure.

 

[delericho]

The problem seems to be that inside and outside of battle, they aren't that effective. A good example was when they where infront of a thievesguild hideout, with one barbarian and two rogues at guard. They took hours to figure out what they would do...

What were the thieves (from the guild) doing all this time the PCs were lurking outside having a big argument about how to attack their lair?

In battle, its much more like there is a fighter fighting over there, a ranger over there and a sorcerer at the other side of the room.

Have your monsters divide and conquer. If the party fights as three independent units, have the minions pin down the Fighter and the Ranger, while the BBEG makes a beeline for the Sorcerer. (But have the NPCs take them prisoner, unless you want a TPK.)

After the first few times the party have their asses handed to them, they'll start to get the message.

Is this sounding familiar? Anyway to get to smooth things down?

Yes. And your players will adapt their play to the style that your game rewards. So, if you want quick, decisive action, you have to reward quick decisive action and 'punish' indecisive action and dithering.

So, if the PCs take hours deciding how to deal with the thieves, have the thieves reinforce, or counter-ambush the PCs, or something similar.

In combat, ask the player what they want to do... and if they don't start declaring their first action within 15 seconds, they lose their turn.

When PCs do act decisively, even if their tactics are therefore sub-par, don't punish that. Consider having your bad guys be demoralised by a sudden rush (either a -1 morale penalty on attacks, or just have them break and run/surrender).

And so on. Reward the play you want to see, discourage the play you don't want to see, and your problems should sort themselves out.

 

[Starfox]

One way to make them feel more secure and at liberty to try crazy things is to make things easier for them. If they feel confident both A and B will work, then the choice is more a matter of cool and role-play and less tactics.

Also, you can force their hand. Imagine A is to climb to the roof and sneak in and B is to sleep the guards and sneak in. As a DM, you know both tactics will work, and want to drop clues as to the possible results to give them information to act on. Also, it often pays to give this information to players who are less engaged in the action as a way to get them involved.

As a DM, I find I can always give my players more information to make meaningful decisions on.


Druid: I think we should climb to the roof and sneak in .
Sorcerer: We could sleep the guards and sneak in.
DM: You notice someone open a window on the roof, look out, empty a chamberpot and return inside, leaving the window open for air. It looks like there is a bedroom inside.
Fighter: *stacking miniatures on top of another*
Rogue: We should do something!
Druid: Yes we should...What do you think Ranger?
Ranger: *sticks his nose out of the book* eh? Don't care.
DM: Hey ranger, you notice one of the guard sports a hunting horn. If he can use that, the whole place will be alerted.
[...]

 

[BlubSeabass]

Wow, thanks for all the help! I will try some of these next time. Most of them are reading the topic anyways, probably they'll get the hint.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Wow, thanks for all the help! I will try some of these next time. Most of them are reading the topic anyways, probably they'll get the hint.

That, by the way, is another way to deal with game issues - talk about it with the people involved.

Of course, a message board thread is a great way to find ways to better describe the problem and finding remedies that the group alone might be unsure about.

 

[Pbartender]

One way to make them feel more secure and at liberty to try crazy things is to make things easier for them. If they feel confident both A and B will work, then the choice is more a matter of cool and role-play and less tactics.

Also, you can force their hand. Imagine A is to climb to the roof and sneak in and B is to sleep the guards and sneak in. As a DM, you know both tactics will work, and want to drop clues as to the possible results to give them information to act on. Also, it often pays to give this information to players who are less engaged in the action as a way to get them involved.

As a DM, I find I can always give my players more information to make meaningful decisions on.


Druid: I think we should climb to the roof and sneak in .
Sorcerer: We could sleep the guards and sneak in.
DM: You notice someone open a window on the roof, look out, empty a chamberpot and return inside, leaving the window open for air. It looks like there is a bedroom inside.
Fighter: *stacking miniatures on top of another*
Rogue: We should do something!
Druid: Yes we should...What do you think Ranger?
Ranger: *sticks his nose out of the book* eh? Don't care.
DM: Hey ranger, you notice one of the guard sports a hunting horn. If he can use that, the whole place will be alerted.
[...]

This is exactly the sort of the thing I was suggesting earlier in the thread.

 

[carmachu]

The leader thing sound nice, but I have no idea who would have authority over another. In battle, most of the times everybody just goes hit something. Sometimes, in a moment of clarity, they work good together. But most of the times I'm more like:" Better not play the monsters to the fullest now..."

Maybe you should start playing them to their fullest and get them to see how working together works.

Its a player disconnect. I'm not saying have a TPK, but if someone dies, becuase they dont work together, well maybe they will start pulling together. Your party is getting towards, if not there already,to a point that not working together is going to get lethal fast.

 

[Herobizkit]

The sorcerer and the druid are the controllers.
The fighter is the heavy-hitter.
The rogue and ranger are the scalpels.

Tactics are pretty simple, in most cases:

• Sorcerer drops the bomb for massive group damage, or lobs something to soften the bad guy's muscle.
• Druid takes care of bad guy support with AoE spells... if it's just mooks, wild shape into something with a lot of attacks and go claw/claw/bite happy.
• Fighter should likely charge the biggest, baddest looking mofo on the field.
• Rogue should be right behind the Fighter, getting into flanking poistion.
• Ranger should be peppering shots at supporting bad guys (hopefully he has Precise Shot so he can fire into melee w/o penalty), or at spellcasters (if any).

"Warriors" fight, "Casters" cast.

 

[carmachu]

The sorcerer and the druid are the controllers.
The fighter is the heavy-hitter.
The rogue and ranger are the scalpels.


Tactics are pretty simple, in most cases:

• Sorcerer drops the bomb for massive group damage, or lobs something to soften the bad guy's muscle.
• Druid takes care of bad guy support with AoE spells... if it's just mooks, wild shape into something with a lot of attacks and go claw/claw/bite happy.
• Fighter should likely charge the biggest, baddest looking mofo on the field.
• Rogue should be right behind the Fighter, getting into flanking poistion.
• Ranger should be peppering shots at supporting bad guys (hopefully he has Precise Shot so he can fire into melee w/o penalty), or at spellcasters (if any).

"Warriors" fight, "Casters" cast.

Judging by the orignial posters post, his party doesnt seem to even do that set of basic tactics.

 

[Herobizkit]

Exactly so, carmachu. Since two (three?) players from the group have posted here, I thought I'd drop some basic tactics for their perusal.

To the DM, all I can recommend is to echo the suggestions of others - if your players won't be proactive, make the enemies proactive. Forcing the players to react is always an uncomfortable position (especially if they're as unprepared and disorganized as you say); eventually, they will get tired of always having to be the defenders and be more proactive themselves. Or so we can hope.