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D&D 5E Party optimisation vs Character optimisation

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Sounds like we're close to re-deriving optimization tiers. Casters are more versatile, which pushes them to a higher tier, in spite of a few non-casters having high white-room DPR.


So you're saying that it's not all about DPR anymore, because the odds aren't always in your favor, but that's not because of the hit-and-miss quality of the encounter guidelines. So why is it the "odds aren't always in your favor" in 5e relative to other editions?

And that is the traditional D&D I've always known and loved. I always considered having more versatility and ability to affect the game world as a caster a feature of D&D. Not something to be neutered. Where I had the problem was them being able to do that and completely dominate combat encounters.

A lot of people that play martials like to hit stuff and kill it. They don't like to spend time thinking of the best way to use spells. Spell strategy is something caster players love.

I think 5E did a good job of stopping the combat domination by casters at higher level, while still giving caster players strategic options that are fun and effective. As far as caster versatility, that's how it should be. Though it is nice to have a rogue so good at certain non-combat stuff like stealthing and sleight of hand, you can make an adventure involving no magic the rogue can complete without a bit of combat.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
Sounds like we're close to re-deriving optimization tiers. Casters are more versatile, which pushes them to a higher tier, in spite of a few non-casters having high white-room DPR.


So you're saying that it's not all about DPR anymore, because the odds aren't always in your favor, but that's not because of the hit-and-miss quality of the encounter guidelines. So why is it the "odds aren't always in your favor" in 5e relative to other editions?

You actually want martial types around in the party at higher levels in 5E though which is similar to 2E. You want to have DPR spread over the party not focus on 1-2 PCs in the party. You do not want front liner dealing 1d8+1 damage (which I have seen) but you do not need a cross bow expert dealing 1d6+15 with 4 attacks either. Fighters are very good in this edition.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
A lot of people that play martials like to hit stuff and kill it. They don't like to spend time thinking of the best way to use spells. Spell strategy is something caster players love.
That's a truism, because of the history of D&D: martial characters have generally been beatsticks, so you can assume that anyone who wants to play a martial character must want to play beatsticks; casters have always been complex and situationally powerful and provided their players with a high degree of agency, so you can assume that anyone who wants those things must only want to play casters.

Using the same logic, you could have taken a visual survey of bus ridership in the segregation-era deep south and concluded that black people /like/ sitting in the back of the bus.

It's just not a valid syllogism.

I like playing some martial archetypes, and I'm pretty thoroughly sick of the quixotic quasi-Vancian mechanics of D&D casters, so, yeah, I'd like a supported martial archetype or six with some real options and some real agency, in all three pillars. In a classless game, or even in a balanced class-based system, that's at least a possibility.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
That's a truism, because of the history of D&D: martial characters have generally been beatsticks, so you can assume that anyone who wants to play a martial character must want to play beatsticks; casters have always been complex and situationally powerful and provided their players with a high degree of agency, so you can assume that anyone who wants those things must only want to play casters.

Using the same logic, you could have taken a visual survey of bus ridership in the segregation-era deep south and concluded that black people /like/ sitting in the back of the bus.

It's just not a valid syllogism.

I like playing some martial archetypes, and I'm pretty thoroughly sick of the quixotic quasi-Vancian mechanics of D&D casters, so, yeah, I'd like a supported martial archetype or six with some real options and some real agency, in all three pillars. In a classless game, or even in a balanced class-based system, that's at least a possibility.

Ranger with some sort of social back ground would fit that criteria. An outlander paladin could probably do it as well.
 

I like playing some martial archetypes, and I'm pretty thoroughly sick of the quixotic quasi-Vancian mechanics of D&D casters, so, yeah, I'd like a supported martial archetype or six with some real options and some real agency, in all three pillars. In a classless game, or even in a balanced class-based system, that's at least a possibility.

Why a martial archetype? "Martial" only covers one pillar: it basically says that you want combat options that don't involve magic. D&D 5E supports that style okay but it could certainly do better: it would be cool to have options for "things you can do with weapons." AD&D handled this via called shots (e.g. targetting the enemy's weapon, or cutting his hand so he can't hold a weapon, or parrying his attack, etc.) and apparently 3E handled it via feats and prestige classes. 5E does a bit of both: battlemaster picks options at build-time, but PHB allows grappling/pushing for anyone, and DMG adds disarm although I strongly prefer the AD&D way. Still, that only addresses the combat pillar.

If you want non-magical exploration or social options, I don't see any reason at all why they'd be martial in nature. D&D could add a detailed subsystem for social intrigue: everyone has a certain number of social goals, strengths and weaknesses, and Reputation resources to deploy, and over the course of several days gossiping/politicking you make Insight or Diplomacy checks to protect your Reputation and degrade (or enhance) others' and/or accomplish your social goals. It could add a detailed economics subsystem where you buy low in one city, choose another city where you expect to sell high, then move your goods to that city and try to sell them there. These subsystems might give you lots of agency and things to do in the exploration/social pillars without having anything to do with magic per se--but they're hardly martial in nature either. Instead of asking for martial options, why not ask for wealth-based options, or intelligence-based play (in the "spying" sense of the word), or socialite options, or something that conveys what you're actually looking for? Otherwise discussion will always devolve back onto the combat tier, and if you're genuinely looking for non-magical ways to enhance the exploration/social tiers that will leave you unsatisfied.
 

Pickles JG

First Post
Why a martial archetype? "Martial" only covers one pillar: it basically says that you want combat options that don't involve magic.

But the "Spellcasting Archetype" doesn't as every spell caster gets some spells that are useful out of combat in a way that Fighter abilities are not. I think Martial is being used as a code for non magical here anyway.

Rogues & Rangers get some out of combat class features, rogues with expertise & their "take 10" can dominate skill based scenes. Fighters cant really & are stuck with hitting stuff. However Wizards & Clerics can respec for social & "exploration" activity. Whatever other subsystems you incorporate they will have access to it just like fighters do but also access to their spells.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
That's a truism, because of the history of D&D: martial characters have generally been beatsticks, so you can assume that anyone who wants to play a martial character must want to play beatsticks; casters have always been complex and situationally powerful and provided their players with a high degree of agency, so you can assume that anyone who wants those things must only want to play casters.

This is not correct. Multiclassing and the capability of martial classes created more varied characters earlier in the game editions. Rogues at one time were more focused on non-combat activities than combat in the very early editions. You did not play a rogue to do combat. You played a rogue to be super sneaky guy that stole things and scouted. He was a very bad combatant in open battle. He snuck in, landed a backstab, and then let the warriors do the hammering.

The ranger also had non-combat capabilities that were helpful and allowed for more varied play.

Using the same logic, you could have taken a visual survey of bus ridership in the segregation-era deep south and concluded that black people /like/ sitting in the back of the bus.

It's just not a valid syllogism.

There is no logic involved. Applying logical arguments to a gamed based on traditional fantasy tropes mined from historical and literary sources is not a compelling argument for change.

You use a ridiculous example and claim my syllogism is not valid? Your example is not valid. There has been no prejudice towards martials.

Fighters have always been limited because they are supposed to be the traditional bare bones fighter. It is a particular fantasy archetype with both a literary and historical lineage. Other archetypes are built in the same fashion. Magic is less limited than martial characters that traditionally rely on mundane skills with the occasional inclusion of magic items. It always has been according to the source material magic is derived from.

I like playing some martial archetypes, and I'm pretty thoroughly sick of the quixotic quasi-Vancian mechanics of D&D casters, so, yeah, I'd like a supported martial archetype or six with some real options and some real agency, in all three pillars. In a classless game, or even in a balanced class-based system, that's at least a possibility.

Martials have always had options and agency. The problem with your viewpoint is it founded upon the idea that you should have the same options and agency as other classes. That your choice of class should not limit you in any fashion. That does not in any way imitate the source material the game is based on. You somehow want the game designers to create a fantasy game meant to attract fans of fantasy (not anime) that makes casters and martials equal in nearly every facet of the game, when this has not been the case in the very stories the fans read. I have never understood this viewpoint.

If you want the game to be played in a certain fashion, why don't you search for a game that fits what you want to do. Why do you continue to complain about a game that does not fit what you want to do. When I wanted to play a James Bond-type character or modern ninja, I played Top Secret or Ninjas and Superspies. Games that simulated the type of genre conventions I enjoy and expect. If your preference is for martials to have super powers like anime characters or superheroes, then find a game system that does that well. D&D is not that system, never has been that system, and probably never will be that system.

D&D attempts to simulate a hodgepodge of fantasy and historical elements from various sources dating anywhere from modern day works like The First Law to ancient mythologies from thousands of years ago. You as a player are allowed to use the rule set as you wish to create the type of game you want. Yet because it does not fit what you want do out of the box, you criticize the game? It continues to boggle my mind every time I read such ludicrous complaints and claims.

When I and my friends were young and we wanted to play a Hercules or Gilgamesh, we made it up. We used to make martials with extraordinary special abilities up all the time. Assassins with shadowy teleportation powers. Super strong demigods. Rangers that could track demons to the very pits of The Abyss. We started off using the regular ruleset and standard D&D paradigm, Once we knew the rules well, we took off in whatever direction seemed fun at the time making stuff up using the rules as guidelines. If the rules didn't fit what we wanted to do such as playing superheroes or martial artists, we tried a different game.

We knew that D&D didn't fit everything we wanted to do. No game does save for perhaps GURPS. It has its own problems including excessive complexity. I suggest you stop limiting yourself by the rules as written and use the game as you want to use it. If that means adding lots of cool options to martials, then do it. If it means banning casters and creating adventures accomplished by mundane skills and capabilities that martials excel at, then do it. Stop making it seem like D&D created some limiting environment that you must adhere to like laws in a corrupt state. That isn't the case. It's more an indication of a limited imagination than a limited rule set. The only "rule" you should ever follow is to have fun. D&D is about having fun with your friends in whatever fashion seems cool to you at a given time.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
This is not correct. Multiclassing and the capability of martial classes created more varied characters earlier in the game editions.
Mixing martial and caster classes doesn't give you a martial character that isn't a beatstick, it just gives you a caster who's not as much of a caster.


Rogues at one time were more focused on non-combat activities than combat in the very early editions. You did not play a rogue to do combat. You played a rogue to be super sneaky guy that stole things and scouted.
So it's questionable whether he's 'martial?' But, he was a non-caster, and he did lack profoundly in versatility. Where a caster could sneak about invisibly, use conjured creatures or TK or even knock to open doors and trigger traps - and also bust out combat spells, the rogue could sneak around (by succeeding at /both/ a hide in shadows /and/ a move silently check, both of which were pretty low) and make really pretty tough percentile checks to open locks or find & remove traps (separately), and suck in combat. Same lack of versatility as the unambiguously 'martial' fighter.

And, of course, the Ranger & Paladin, who could be regarded as martial, were also casters.

There is no logic involved. Applying logical arguments to a gamed based on traditional fantasy tropes mined from historical and literary sources is not a compelling argument for change.
How 'bout the fact that the game completely fails to capture said tropes? D&D casters, for instance, are wildly over-versatile and over-powered and have more consistent abilities than any of their sources of inspiration. In myth and legend, for instance, a magic-user - typically a villain - will be able to do one or a few supernatural things. Circe, for instance could change men into animals, and not really anything else. Merlin, Gandalf and the like didn't exactly run around throwing fireballs like a D&D mage, either.

For that matter, if you go to the nearest source of inspiration, Vance's Dying Earth, the magicians he imagined could cast only a handful of spells a day - even the greatest Vancian magicians ever alluded to in his works could manage to memorize at most 10 spells - something D&D wizards exceed while still in single-digit levels.

No, the only tradition that says casters must be wildly versatile and powerful while martial characters are choiceless beatsticks and inflexible specialists is the tradition of D&D, itself. A tradition that modern editions have tried to overcome with varying degrees of success.

There has been no prejudice towards martials.
There has been, and is. The hew and cry over martial characters in 4e finally getting close to rough parity - the edition war, itself - is clear evidence of it.

The problem with your viewpoint is it founded upon the idea that you should have the same options and agency as other classes. That your choice of class should not limit you in any fashion. That does not in any way imitate the source material the game is based on.
You're a little off - veering into straw man territory as you must to try to make the idea of balanced classes sound unreasonable or 'samey.' No, the idea is that any given class should have the same amount of agency, a similar array of choices, not the exact same choices. An old-school fighter had little more choice defined in the rules than attack or not. A caster of moderate level had a lot of spell choices. A more reasonable system would split the difference, given the caster only a handfull of spell choices, and the martial character a handful of maneuvers or tactical choices - similar in number, impact, and thus agency, but entirely different in kind.

You somehow want the game designers to create a fantasy game meant to attract fans of fantasy (not anime) that makes casters and martials equal in nearly every facet of the game, when this has not been the case in the very stories the fans read.
I guess this is worth repeating: the do-anything, dozen-slots-a-day, fire-and-forget-wizard does not exist in /any/ of the source material. Not even Vance. It's an artifact of D&D's failure to get the genre remotely right.

If your preference is for martials to have super powers like anime characters or superheroes, then find a game system that does that well. D&D is not that system, never has been that system, and probably never will be that system.
You insist on wandering off into strawman territory again, and pretending I want a superhero game, when, in fact, I'd just like a balanced game that is /closer/ to the sources of inspiration by having martial characters that actually matter

There have been rays of light here and there in D&D's history. For a few years, the game even presented reasonably balanced classes and brought martial characters closer to parity. During the playtest, there were a few packets that were going in promising directions. The game's philosophy has become more open to homebrewing and DM-empowerment, so a good DM can mod it to be less at odds with the genre it purports to emulate, and to give players afflicted with a preference for martial archetypes more & better choices both at chargen and in play.





Why a martial archetype? "Martial" only covers one pillar: it basically says that you want combat options that don't involve magic.
It's more evocative of the kind of non-spell-casting heroes that populate the fantasy genre than 'mundane' and not as clumsy as saying non-spell-casting-hero-typical-of-fantasy-genres.

;)

D&D 5E supports that style okay but it could certainly do better: it would be cool to have options for "things you can do with weapons." AD&D handled this via called shots (e.g. targetting the enemy's weapon, or cutting his hand so he can't hold a weapon, or parrying his attack, etc.) and apparently 3E handled it via feats and prestige classes.
And 4e handled it extremely well with martial exploits that matched other classes' spells in power, effectiveness, and availability - if not quite in versatility - while being entirely distinct and still clearly non-magical.

D&D could add a detailed subsystem for social intrigue: everyone has a certain number of social goals, strengths and weaknesses, and Reputation resources to deploy, and over the course of several days gossiping/politicking you make Insight or Diplomacy checks to protect your Reputation and degrade (or enhance) others' and/or accomplish your social goals.
It certainly could. It might be better based on background than class. Class could handle the combat/adventuring aspects of a character, with manuevers, special abilities, and spells of classes focused on those things, exclusively. Backgrounds could determine the social aspects - and you could have caster backgrounds that bring in the spells that affect that pillar, as well. A third choice could deal with the exploration pillar, perhaps?
 
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Where does one derive the idea that Circe was limited to animal transformations? Was there ever a case where she says, "Wow, I really wish I could see the future, but it's just not within my idiom"?

As far as I can tell, gods and magical creatures in legend are arbitrarily powerful. They can do whatever the plot requires. Who knew Diana could turn people into stags until a hunter caught her bathing? The idea of formal LIMITATIONS on magic doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone.

TLDR; with Circe, "could" and "couldn't" are forever unknowable. There is only "did" and "didn't."
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
TLDR; with Circe, "could" and "couldn't" are forever unknowable. There is only "did" and "didn't."
A distinction without a difference. In genre, magic-using characters tend to display only a few supernatural abilities, in D&D, casters display a bewildering variety.
 

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