D&D 5E passive perception vs active perception

[cooperjer]

I agree with much of what has been indicated. I'll add that when the orcs stop to look for the elves they may spend a few minutes (DMs judgment) looking for the elves and help each other. If that is the case an argument can be made for the orcs to use their passive perception at advantage.

What if the elves wanted to lay an ambush for the orcs and has a few minutes to and assist each other with hiding. In my mind the rules indicate the elves can use their passive stealth with advantage.

I would also like to add that the OP should keep in mind other skills can also be used in the passive manner. For instance, I had a player try to interpret the interaction between an Earth cultist and a Galeb Duhr. I asked for the passive insight. I gave clear indication of what the intent of the earth cultist humanoid was and applied disadvantage to inside to determine the intent of the Galeb Duhr.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

they way i understand it now, is that with passive perception the character isnt really looking for "something" but might spot it anyway..as opposed to active perception where you are actively looking for "it". Couple of question:

No, that's not it. Passive Perception is for when the *player* isn't actively doing anything.

It can be used for situations where the GM doesn't want the players to roll dice, for example to maintain player suspense and surprise.

It can be used to speed up play when there are a large number of dice to roll. "Make a Wisdom Perception check please, one for each 10 feet of dungeon passage, for the next half a mile." "OKJ, you've made your stealth roll, now I need to roll Wisdom Perception for all seventy-five guards in the camp."

 

[robus]

No, that's not it. Passive Perception is for when the *player* isn't actively doing anything.

I think you mean character when you say player? And as iserith notes it’s not about the activity but whether dice are rolled or not to resolve uncertainty. Really “passive” has turned out to be a terribly confising term

I came up with something I think is better a while back but it eludes me for now. But really it’s average rather passive. We’re checking the result of performing a repetitive task.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

I think you mean character when you say player?

No, I do mean player, as in "one of the people sitting at the table."

A passive skill roll has nothing to do with what the characters are doing; it is just a tabletop decision of whether to roll dice or not.

From the Basic Rules:

A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.

 

[robus]

No, I do mean player, as in "one of the people sitting at the table."

A passive skill roll has nothing to do with what the characters are doing; it is just a tabletop decision of whether to roll dice or not.

From the Basic Rules:

But in that quote the character is doing something, searching for secret doors. And the passive check determines the outcome of that ongoing activity (though a static number against a static number is not too thrilling )

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

But in that quote the character is doing something

Correct. If the character wasn't doing anything then there would be no need for any check.

For example, some characters are walking into an ambush. There is a chance they could detect the ambush and real consequences for failure, so a check is required. The GM could call for a Wisdom\Perception ability check or could use a passive value.

Now, if the characters were not paying attention (maybe traveling at a very fast pace, perhaps arguing amongst themselves) then there is no need for a check - the GM just says, "You are ambushed!"

For example, an archer shoots a sleeping character. There is no chance the character could detect the archer, so no check is made, either active rolling of a die or a passive check.

In games I ran last year, I used passive knowledge skills. I wrote in my notes things like, "Passive Intelligence\History 15 knows this." While the game was running, I could say things like, "Juma, because of his knowledge of history, knows this." I chose not to ask for rolling a dice in order to speed up play, as well as to make sure that the players who had chosen proficiencies got some time in the spotlight.

I also used passive Strength and Dexterity rolls a couple of times, ruling that a few PCs and NPCs with very low scores just couldn't make a jump or climb.

This year, I am going to run a few combats using passive Dexterity checks for initiative, to see if that speeds up play and removes breaks in narrative flow.

There are also other places in the game where passive rolls are used when characters are actively doing things. For example, carrying capacity. We don't call for a Strength check every time a character puts on their backpack because that would bog the game down too much; we go for a static number.

In summary: Checks are only required when there is doubt about the outcome of a situation and there are real consequences for failure. A check usually involves rolling one or more dice. Passive checks use a predetermined number (5, 10 or 15) instead of a dice roll, usually to speed up play but sometimes to increase players' tension and surprise.

 

[FrogReaver]

HI,

they way i understand it now, is that with passive perception the character isnt really looking for "something" but might spot it anyway..as opposed to active perception where you are actively looking for "it". Couple of question:

1. does passive perception uses the Wisdom ability?
2. does active perception uses the Intelligence ability?

Say you are on a road and hear a group of Orcs marching on the same road towards you. You jump behind a tree and try to hide. Say the Orcs arent looking for you. The DM lets you make a stealth check and compares this against the passive perception (which is DC10+wisdom ability) of the Orcs. Is there a difference between 1 Orc and 5? Does the player for instance has to make 5 checks in that last case? Of is it still one roll but with a modifier of some sort?

And how would the above scenario play out if the Orcs were active looking for elves.

Thanks in advance

Rulings not rules.

It's the DM's call on how to resolve any situation. He doesn't even have to conform to the rules in the book regarding perception and stealth. My guess would be that most DM's don't play those things totally by the book. Personally I think the game is better when they don't and instead use whatever is most sensible to them at the time.

 

[Charlaquin]

Rulings not rules.

It's the DM's call on how to resolve any situation. He doesn't even have to conform to the rules in the book regarding perception and stealth. My guess would be that most DM's don't play those things totally by the book. Personally I think the game is better when they don't and instead use whatever is most sensible to them at the time.

This is true, but probably not the most helpful answer. Presumably, if someone is asking for rules guidance, it’s because they don’t feel confident enough to make a ruling given their current system knowledge. Sure, the right answer is “whatever works best for your game,” but most of the time the people asking for advice are well aware of that, but don’t have enough information to decide with confidence what is best for their game.

 

[FrogReaver]

This is true, but probably not the most helpful answer. Presumably, if someone is asking for rules guidance, it’s because they don’t feel confident enough to make a ruling given their current system knowledge. Sure, the right answer is “whatever works best for your game,” but most of the time the people asking for advice are well aware of that, but don’t have enough information to decide with confidence what is best for their game.

Everyone else provided that info. Surely one person can post a reminder that in this case especially you are better off doing it however.

 

[Hriston]

HI,

they way i understand it now, is that with passive perception the character isnt really looking for "something" but might spot it anyway..as opposed to active perception where you are actively looking for "it".

As others have said, there's no difference in the fictional positioning of the character between a passive Perception check and a rolled Perception check. In both cases, the character is "keeping an eye out" for things that are hidden or wouldn't otherwise be noticed or detected. The difference is that a passive check can be used when the activity is done repeatedly, or the DM wants to keep it a secret that a check is being made.

Couple of question:

1. does passive perception uses the Wisdom ability?
2. does active perception uses the Intelligence ability?

Perception is an aspect of Wisdom according to the default descriptions in the rulebooks. There is a rules-variant, however, that lets you mix and match skills with different abilities.

Say you are on a road and hear a group of Orcs marching on the same road towards you. You jump behind a tree and try to hide. Say the Orcs arent looking for you.

Saying they aren't looking for you implies they don't have a dedicated lookout and are preoccupied with some other activity. For example, they might all be focused on tracking some creature as they march. In that case, I wouldn't consult their passive Perception score at all and would describe a successful result to the hide attempt.

The DM lets you make a stealth check and compares this against the passive perception (which is DC10+wisdom ability) of the Orcs. Is there a difference between 1 Orc and 5? Does the player for instance has to make 5 checks in that last case? Of is it still one roll but with a modifier of some sort?

There's no difference between one orc and five orcs as long as they all have the same passive Perception score. The hiding creature makes one Dexterity (Stealth) check which is contested by the orcs' passive Perception. If the hiding creature's check meets or exceeds the orcs' passive score, it remains hidden. If its check is lower than the orcs' score, they notice it.

And how would the above scenario play out if the Orcs were active looking for elves.

As I said, if they aren't looking, their passive Perception doesn't contribute to finding elves or anyone else, so the hiding creature remains hidden. If they are looking, however, then their passive Perception score is compared to the creature's Stealth check to see if the creature is discovered. I'd assume if they were keeping watch for hidden elves that they'd also notice other hidden creatures whose Stealth check result was lower than their passive Perception score.

Thanks in advance

You're welcome!