D&D 5E passive perception vs active perception

[robus]

what i meant by not really looking is this: the orcs dont know there are any elves. They are just marching to their base camp for instance.

but in the PHB on pg 177 (block on Hiding), it states that PP can be used even when characters arent really looking. Which kind of contradicts what [MENTION=6801558]robus[/MENTION] said about PP not being a radar for anything. This rings true to me as wel. Because even if you are not looking for elves, you can spot one (by accident).

Yeah, i think i was subconsciously channeling iserith, as i was assuming that the orc’s were at least keeping an awareness of some kind of danger but no specific interest in the general area which is why i had them be at disadvantage. As for many of these things there’s no one right answer. The rules provide a great toolbox from which to pull the right thing for the job at hand, but they’re not going to tell you which to use. That is going to come from trial and error and finding the fun for your table.

 

[ClaytonCross]

HI,

they way i understand it now, is that with passive perception the character isnt really looking for "something" but might spot it anyway..as opposed to active perception where you are actively looking for "it". Couple of question:

1. does passive perception uses the Wisdom ability?
2. does active perception uses the Intelligence ability?

Say you are on a road and hear a group of Orcs marching on the same road towards you. You jump behind a tree and try to hide. Say the Orcs arent looking for you. The DM lets you make a stealth check and compares this against the passive perception (which is DC10+wisdom ability) of the Orcs. Is there a difference between 1 Orc and 5? Does the player for instance has to make 5 checks in that last case? Of is it still one roll but with a modifier of some sort?

And how would the above scenario play out if the Orcs were active looking for elves.

Thanks in advance

I use perception (Wisdom) to see things, spot something out of place maybe a trip maybe just an interesting detail.
I use investigation (Intelligence) to check for the hidden or function of something.

So traps. Player is walking along at half speed, "Looking for traps". I prefer passive perception to notice something out of place, a tile, an arrow slit, a trip wire. Passive because it is continual and the player doesn't know its there. On any trap the player misses, while "looking for traps" I allow the first player PC with perception skill a perception (wisdom) check to see it on top of that, with advantage if their are 2 "scouts" walking together up front. No additional chances or checks.

If a player is expecting a trap, like on a door or chest, but can't see it because it is internal for example. I let them make a investigation (Intelligence) check to notice/figure out the trap.

If a player is "checking the room for hidden secrets" with no target to search, I will let 1 player with proficiency in perception(wis) check for things out of place and one with proficiency in investigation(int) make a check. The checks are independent of each other but the perception always goes first, if the percerption (wis) check "finds something out of place" the investigation(Int) check gets target DC reduced by 5. Both maybe aided if declared by allies proficient in those skills for advantage on the test or its assumed the other players are just randomly looking around and killing time waiting for the search to be finished.

For the Orc scenario, I use passive perception of the highest skill for patrols but if the highest AND at least one other member are both proficient in perception then I give +5 to that passive search and players roll to stealth that score as a group, at least half must succeed or the group fails, a natural 20 means you "aid" the stealth of another who failed and they pass (players choice), a natural 1 means you hinder the effort of a team mate who passed and they fail (GMs choice, but not someone who rolled a 20). If the group is discovered, I allow anyone who passed to attempt to remain hidden with a standard opposed test Orc patrol active test (possibly with aid) vs the individual stealth tests of the passing players. It doesn't really slow things down much since the Orc group might get one roll and the players might roll twice at the same time but if that happens only some will roll the second time.

An orc patron can be considered to be looking for your group or not but I still allow passive if your just coming across them, if they were following you, ambushing, or waiting at a location they knew you would be then I give them an active check to begin with. If they are just trying to spot you while your "stealth" around in motion perception(wis) if your "hidden" in place and they are searching for you investigation (Int), if your hiding/stealthy in motion outdoors and at least one is proficient they can use survival(wis) to track you. They only get 1 search of the highest skill and can only "aid/help" for advantage if at least one character trying to aid has the same skill. I use the exact same system in reverse for players searching for NPCs.

That's my take on it anyway.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

The use of the word Passive for this is one of those poor word choices they made when writing 5E. It implies that the character is not doing anything at all and a high enough score means that something simply happens without the character doing anything at all, yet the example in the PHB shows the character doing actively doing something, something that is so mundane that a dice roll is not needed to succeed. I know it does not work exactly the same as Take 10 from 3E, but it is similar enough that I still think of it that way.

Anyway, here is a totally different example for you, for passive versus active. Your character is standing guard duty on the perimeter of a camp. You are watching outward for any signs of anything approaching. Your passive perception tells you that is a breeze starts blowing on you from behind. Your active perception roll for guarding tells you that you see no leaves or grass moving in any breeze in front of you. Another active roll successfully tells you there is faint noise behind you that the default 10+modifiers for passive did not alert you to.

 

[jasper]

I get it, but the problem with this is, this is a story telling game, and it's the DM's job to be descriptive. It's easy for players to miss things because of lack of details, or the adventure is badly written.

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Or if someone is using tapatalk BIG FAT EVIL GRIN.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

The use of the word Passive for this is one of those poor word choices they made when writing 5E.

Agreed. They could have explained much better that what they mean by passive is, "no one at the table is rolling dice."

An active check involves one or more people at the table performing an action (picking up one or more dice and rolling them). A passive check means no one at the table performed any action.

In short, passive does not refer to the character not being active; it refers to the players not being active.

That said, I'm not sure what term I would have used for this game mechanic.