Pathfinder 2 and the game Paizo should have made

[Arilyn]

Personally I agree with you, that is my experience too. However, I see no value in discounting the experience of many others and the feedback both WotC and Paizo have received.

I'm different, I prefer fewer choices and then I can add more as I see fit. No game has what I want precisely, so I prefer to add what i need rather than cut what I don't.

I can appreciate games that are simple and streamlined. I often prefer them, but to me, the treats one gets from levelling up should be large and varied. I guess I'm not a huge fan of classes unless I have a lot of blocks to play with.

My reaction to players complaining about broken games was a knee jerk reaction, for sure. The idea of broken games is a pet peeve of mine, since there are very few broken games being created anymore. No game is perfect, but no game is going to survive long if broken. Players often throw out the term for games they don't like, or particular mechanics that bug them.

Just get tired of hearing, 3e was so broken, or the 2d20 system from Mofiipheus is broken, and Paizo has broken PF, etc.

 

[3catcircus]

To be clear - the core mechanics of the various d20-based D&D/PF games are solid. It's when you add multiple options from various supplements that were never sufficiently playtested together that the rules start to break down.

 

[CapnZapp]

To be clear - the core mechanics of the various d20-based D&D/PF games are solid. It's when you add multiple options from various supplements that were never sufficiently playtested together that the rules start to break down.

I guess my only comment here is that it is basically not possible any more to discuss "3e core" or "Pathfinder core". Everyone talking about those systems are thinking about PHB + 20 supplements.

And that 5E stand out in sharp contrast to those systems. Even after five years, there really isn't any meatier subsystem added to 5E. It's still core and just core. Sure your character might be using a subclass from a splatbook, but very few of those add anything that you couldn't already do. Pro: the core system still holds. Con: new splats feel much like the old splats.

We'll see if I return to 5E once they dare branch out into new subsystems. High-level play. Bending concentration and attunement. Psionics. Subclasses with actually new and unique mechanisms. That sort of thing.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

We'll see if I return to 5E once they dare branch out into new subsystems. High-level play. Bending concentration and attunement. Psionics. Subclasses with actually new and unique mechanisms. That sort of thing.

Out of curiosity, what will you be playing? You don't seem keen on PF2

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I guess my only comment here is that it is basically not possible any more to discuss "3e core" or "Pathfinder core". Everyone talking about those systems are thinking about PHB + 20 supplements.

Not everyone. When I talk about those systems, I'm only referring to the core rulebooks. Supplements change things, almost always for the worse, and taking those into consideration is putting the game in the worst possible light.

I can see how this may cause confusion, during casual discussion. The Third Edition game that I'm talking about may not resemble the Third Edition game that you're talking about.

 

[Parmandur]

I guess my only comment here is that it is basically not possible any more to discuss "3e core" or "Pathfinder core". Everyone talking about those systems are thinking about PHB + 20 supplements.

And that 5E stand out in sharp contrast to those systems. Even after five years, there really isn't any meatier subsystem added to 5E. It's still core and just core. Sure your character might be using a subclass from a splatbook, but very few of those add anything that you couldn't already do. Pro: the core system still holds. Con: new splats feel much like the old splats.

We'll see if I return to 5E once they dare branch out into new subsystems. High-level play. Bending concentration and attunement. Psionics. Subclasses with actually new and unique mechanisms. That sort of thing.

Actually, with 3E, the overwhelming majority would only ever be thinking of Core. This is why WotC has adopted the product plan that they have: Core first, because that's where the customer base lives.

 

[Campbell]

The primary issue with supplement creep is generally not options that are strictly superior to core material. It is interactions between mechanics such that taking things from 5 different books allows a cascade of material that is significantly more powerful than what you could create with one book.

There are games that are more resistant to this than others. Subclasses in Fifth Edition are mutually exclusive. In order for a subclass to be broken the actual subclass needs to be broken. Most of the feats in Pathfinder 2 are mutually exclusive actions or activities, not discrete mechanics that can be layered on top of each other. There is more potential for interactions than Fifth Edition, but substantially less than Pathfinder First Edition.

 

[CapnZapp]

Out of curiosity, what will you be playing? You don't seem keen on PF2

Pathfinder 2E - Pathfinder 2e: Actual Play Experience

There is a lot of theoretical discussion regarding PF2E as to why it will or will not succeed. What I haven't seen much of so far is people's actual experience of playing or running the game which will give a more accurate picture of the game in practice. PF2E has been out for almost 2 months...

www.enworld.org

 

[S'mon]

Actually, with 3E, the overwhelming majority would only ever be thinking of Core. This is why WotC has adopted the product plan that they have: Core first, because that's where the customer base lives.

Yeah, I ran 3e for around 10 years and I only ever used PHB-DMG-MM. Not sure I was aware* of any supplements. Actually most of that time I ran 3.5 PHB, 3.5 MM and 3e DMG, I only picked up a 3.5 DMG at the very end. Pathfinder I ran for a couple years with the Core book, Bestiary I, and the APG (I have some other books like GG and ISWG but did not use any crunch from them). 4e was the first edition since 2e where I bought a ton of supplements.

*Actually I think at some point in 3.0 I was aware of some badly done Fighter splatbook a player owned. It had a Halfling prestige class with no attack progression? And I bought a bunch of cheesy Mongoose supplements/splats, but never used them.

 

[Zardnaar]

I suspect a lot of people haven't played PF2.

However if it's because your rules system or the presentation of it is causing that it's a massive problem.

I'm willing to play but not willing to fork out $100 to get the core ( non American postage is expensive) to trial it due to the PDF.

The SRD is hard to navigate in terms of cross referencing. There's a lot of cool things here and there but much like 4E classes the wall of text and feats is really off-putting.

It might play better than 3E but 3E at least was easy to digest at a casual level.