Pathfinder 2 and the game Paizo should have made

I'm starting to pick up a whiff of edition warring. 🙄
A whiff! Most of the Pathfinder 2e threads here are riddled with edition warring. Some people seem incapable of not attacking either 5e or PF2E, but mainly 5e.

Ah, edition wars. I remember the (not great) edition wars of AD&D2E/3.0; 3.5/4e; 4e/PF1E; 4e/5e. The (not) good 'ol days!

To quote from Battlestar Galactica: 'This has happened before and it will happen again.'

We like to think we are civilized but deep down those primitive tribal instincts are still strong.
 

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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
We are talking about subjective aesthetic experiences. It is possible for one person to find running monsters in a given game not particularly exciting or dynamic and for another person to find it exciting because they find different things exciting. They can both earnestly feel this way.

I also do not find it very helpful to place blame on the user if a given game does not suit their tastes. It may just not be the experience they are looking for. There is nothing wrong with that.
 

The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
A whiff! Most of the Pathfinder 2e threads here are riddled with edition warring. Some people seem incapable of not attacking either 5e or PF2E, but mainly 5e.

Ah, edition wars. I remember the (not great) edition wars of AD&D2E/3.0; 3.5/4e; 4e/PF1E; 4e/5e. The (not) good 'ol days!

To quote from Battlestar Galactica: 'This has happened before and it will happen again.'

We like to think we are civilized but deep down those primitive tribal instincts are still strong.

Honestly, I know this point of view probably isn't going to be popular, but I see it as a natural outcome in a way- you have communities that are focused on a ruleset and once we get a replacement version, or even a branch ala the original pathfinder, the community has to pretty much figure out individually what they're doing in response- staying with their old version, going to the new version, this is especially true with games that do the same thing. My group plays Masks for our super hero game, Dungeons and Dragons for our fantasy game, and would theoretically play Chronicle of Darkness for a kind of supernaturals game, and maybe like Star Wars for the space and laser guns experience.

But now, with Pathfinder 2e coming out, I have a decision to make- it replicates the same kinds of stories that Dungeons and Dragons 5e does, but just does so through a different ruleset, I'm not really going to play both because the two are redundant experiences that would cost more money, more time to learn the rules, and mean that i'd be splitting my fantasy gaming time (and I'm the GM, so its not a question of popping down to different tables) so its kind of a situation where I need to sit down and contrast the two very directly to decide which one is the game that I actually want to stick with. That is functionally an internal edition war, what we see on the forums is people using discussion as a way to sus it out, selling their preferred game (and their viewpoints on why) to one another.

'Attacking' other people's games is kind of inevitable, because 'attacks' and 'the reasons I'm playing this instead' are generally the same thing, you can pretty it up with mitigating language, or try and phrase it as a perk of your game instead of perceived flaw of the other (which will probably beg an argument when other people notice the implication), but what you consider 'warring' is more or less, people discussing their perception of the two games and having the same arguments with one another they have with themselves.
 

Honestly, I know this point of view probably isn't going to be popular, but I see it as a natural outcome in a way- you have communities that are focused on a ruleset and once we get a replacement version, or even a branch ala the original pathfinder, the community has to pretty much figure out individually what they're doing in response- staying with their old version, going to the new version, this is especially true with games that do the same thing. My group plays Masks for our super hero game, Dungeons and Dragons for our fantasy game, and would theoretically play Chronicle of Darkness for a kind of supernaturals game, and maybe like Star Wars for the space and laser guns experience.

But now, with Pathfinder 2e coming out, I have a decision to make- it replicates the same kinds of stories that Dungeons and Dragons 5e does, but just does so through a different ruleset, I'm not really going to play both because the two are redundant experiences that would cost more money, more time to learn the rules, and mean that i'd be splitting my fantasy gaming time (and I'm the GM, so its not a question of popping down to different tables) so its kind of a situation where I need to sit down and contrast the two very directly to decide which one is the game that I actually want to stick with. That is functionally an internal edition war, what we see on the forums is people using discussion as a way to sus it out, selling their preferred game (and their viewpoints on why) to one another.

'Attacking' other people's games is kind of inevitable, because 'attacks' and 'the reasons I'm playing this instead' are generally the same thing, you can pretty it up with mitigating language, or try and phrase it as a perk of your game instead of perceived flaw of the other (which will probably beg an argument when other people notice the implication), but what you consider 'warring' is more or less, people discussing their perception of the two games and having the same arguments with one another they have with themselves.
Well, when it comes to deciding between different editions of similar games I also have internal arguments but I don't internally attack one game over another in a denigrating manner. I certainly wouldn't want to do that to another person. I can see where you're coming from but I disagree that warring is simply discussion of different perceptions.

Edition warring comes from passionate and not always rational defence of what you have embraced over the usurper - attack sometimes being the best form of defence. When multiple people defend the same game it's virtually a defence of the tribe; that primitive instinct is hard to suppress.
 

The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
Well, when it comes to deciding between different editions of similar games I also have internal arguments but I don't internally attack one game over another in a denigrating manner. I certainly wouldn't want to do that to another person. I can see where you're coming from but I disagree that warring is simply discussion of different perceptions.

Edition warring comes from passionate and not always rational defence of what you have embraced over the usurper - attack sometimes being the best form of defence. When multiple people defend the same game it's virtually a defence of the tribe; that primitive instinct is hard to suppress.
I think the specific subject of 'edition warring' is separate than the issue of toxicity in argumentation. "5e has this flaw, so I like the way PF2e handles it" is technically a criticism of 5e, but it isn't a toxic one, so that shouldn't be viewed as some kind of "problem"
 

Eric V

Hero
Me. a guy that has played D&D since it was first released. I find it funny that people say the choices in PF2 don't mean much, when at most levels in 5e, you don't get anything at all, let alone choices.

In-play choices are cool, yeah. PF2, by all play accounts, seems to offer that (in spades, if taking down a higher-level opponent is as difficult as it is being made out). PF2 offers at least as many interesting in-game choices as other games, it seems.

PF2 also offers build choices. As you pointed out, even if they don't mean much, they still mean more than other games that lack such choices.

Fortunately, for the choice-averse, PF2 offers ready-made builds in the book for the different archetypes of their classes, so that's covered too.

A lot of thought seems to have gone into this and lots of options presented for a variety of tastes. I don't see the issue, frankly.
 

I think the specific subject of 'edition warring' is separate than the issue of toxicity in argumentation. "5e has this flaw, so I like the way PF2e handles it" is technically a criticism of 5e, but it isn't a toxic one, so that shouldn't be viewed as some kind of "problem"
I don't view that kind of post as 'warring', by your definition I'm referring to toxic posts which are attacks on a particular game. I think we agree on the same thing.
 

The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
I don't view that kind of post as 'warring', by your definition I'm referring to toxic posts which are attacks on a particular game. I think we agree on the same thing.
I think maybe the only point of contention is that I find that posts that are critical without being toxic are often understood as toxic, and as examples of edition warring, and that they shouldn't be.
 

3catcircus

Adventurer
PF2 suffers from the same flaw as every version going back to D&D3.0 - too many options that work ok in isolation but should never be allowed to be used together - I can pretty much guess with a fair certainty that the designers probably have never playtested rules from a new supplement with those from every other supplement.

Pairing up feats from multiple disparate sources pretty much guarantees that you'll break your game.

Core + setting-specific + only those additional supplements that may be thematically-desired for the particular campaign. I'd also like who can use what additional options - Fighter-types are the only ones who can use options from Ultimate Combat (but not from Ultimate Intrigue or Ultimate Magic), for example.
 

Arilyn

Hero
PF2 suffers from the same flaw as every version going back to D&D3.0 - too many options that work ok in isolation but should never be allowed to be used together - I can pretty much guess with a fair certainty that the designers probably have never playtested rules from a new supplement with those from every other supplement.

Pairing up feats from multiple disparate sources pretty much guarantees that you'll break your game.

Core + setting-specific + only those additional supplements that may be thematically-desired for the particular campaign. I'd also like who can use what additional options - Fighter-types are the only ones who can use options from Ultimate Combat (but not from Ultimate Intrigue or Ultimate Magic), for example.

Never had this problem with my many years with 3e and PF. My games are intact😊
 

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