Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2E Remaster's Death and Dying rules are brutal.

[Velderan]

Good to hear.

My campaign is going pretty slowly (only Lv 4 six months in) and no one has been dropped twice, so if that keeps up I suppose it shouldn't impact us either.

My group just hit level 5 in roughly the same time frame, so pretty close. Our combats have sped up as we get more comfortable with the game, so there’s that too. My players also love to roleplay, so we’ve had sessions where over half of the session is them interacting with the creatures they meet in the AP we’re running (Abomination Vaults) so as GM I lean into that stuff pretty heavily.

As @Thomas Shey said, the rule will mostly impact groups who are already struggling with the game’s style. Either the players need to work together better or the GM needs to recognize how the players in their game approach the game and adjust the challenge level appropriately. You don’t HAVE to run an AP as written, I’ve had to modify every single encounter except 1 because I’m running a game with 6 players. The system provides plenty of guidance in how to do this, which is why I push back on declaring it bad design. An unpopular rule clarification? Sure, it could end up being that based on the early online discussion around it.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

Honestly, in my experience, this is much ado about nothing. I've been in a short campaign, a full (20 levels) campaign, and am 15 levels into another. I've seen Wounded come up in all of that about as many times as I can count on one hand, and it never stuck because either they were evacuated, or healed up.

Its hard for me to see this making PF2e more deadly in a meaningful way unless you have parties that are just not paying attention to each other, and in that case they're more at risk of TPKs than individual death.

I've played in 1 campaign levels 1-12 (Abomination Vaults).

We've had 3 deaths, 3 killed animal companions and in pretty much every fight one character knocked unconscious.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I've played in 1 campaign levels 1-12 (Abomination Vaults).

We've had 3 deaths, 3 killed animal companions and in pretty much every fight one character knocked unconscious.

As I said, experiences are going to differ--but I'd ask: how many of those looked like they could slide into TPKs? I'd suggest more than one.

My point isn't that people can't die in PF2e; its that if they're doing so or getting close to doing so, the encounters are probably over tuned with those character played by those players.

 

[SteveC]

This one is really interesting since it's been said that this was always the rule. Apparently the rule in the new Player Core was actually printed on the GM's screen for the pre-remaster edition with the intent that it was how it was played.

As many folks have pointed out, there were four revisions to the Players Guide where this could have been corrected and they never changed the wording.

It's a strange rule and one that I don't think I'll be using. I have found the wounded rules have enough effect to discourage the "yo-yo" effect of getting knocked out and getting back up from 5E. I don't think this is necessary. It really does change the approach to how you deal with fights where you get knocked down early in the fight. I haven't had the problem that this is supposed to fix, so I don't see the need.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Player Core errata!

• Pages 411: The text for the wounded condition was changed for consistency, but became consistent with the wrong piece of text. This would lead to much deadlier encounters! The following changes should ensure that death and dying works the way we intended.
  • In the Recovery Checks degrees of success, remove all instances of "(plus your wounded condition, if any)"; that's both in the failure and critical failure entries.
  • Under Taking Damage, remove the final sentence that reads, "If you have the wounded condition, remember to add the value of your wounded condition to your dying value." This reminder should only apply to when you gain the dying condition after getting knocked out.

 

[Lojaan]

I think it's been said before, but brutal dying rules like this disproportionately affected new players and, in particular new GMs. It can lead to a very poor first impression.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

So, yeah, we're totally backtracking now, but calling it an errata as we totally intended this less-lethal version that everyone was already using, we just wrote a specifically opposite version, which went through all version edits, uhhuh.

 

[ReshiIRE]

Er. The fact the GM Screen had the incorrect, deadlier version of the rules DOES make this likely an error. Easy miscommunication between editors / designers could have lead to that, honestly.

Regardless, while it is unfortunate the 1st printing won't have the errata, I am glad full clarity was given and that the less deadly rules are being used.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Er. The fact the GM Screen had the incorrect, deadlier version of the rules DOES make this likely an error.

Surely it's the opposite. Another product had the lethal version of the rule, making it double-intended. Then they saw the reaction and were 'oops'.

 

[Retreater]

Nothing like Day 1 patches. :/
I'll wait to purchase the book until this "errata" is incorporated.
Actually kinda makes me mad it went this far.