Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide Preview

[humble minion]

And while I'm not sure if this still applies in PFRPG, you can cast See Invisibility without having to find 250gp of rare ointments as a spell component.

I know high-level characters have plenty of cash, but 250gp per person per casting really starts to add up if you use it as a routine buff.

 

[ruemere]

And while I'm not sure if this still applies in PFRPG, you can cast See Invisibility without having to find 250gp of rare ointments as a spell component.

I know high-level characters have plenty of cash, but 250gp per person per casting really starts to add up if you use it as a routine buff.

Pathfinder PRD: See Invisibility - no such component.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Shisumo]

The thing is, there are a LOT of really good level 2 spells, and one of the significant limitations of the sorcerer is that he normally can't even get all of the top tier ones.

Glitterdust
Scorching Ray
False Life
Mirror Image
Web
Invisibility

By level 8, a Sorcerer will know 3 or 4 of these, depending on his bloodline.

And by level 11, she'll have all but one of them, or all of them, depending on her bloodline.

There are a bunch of other great 2nd level spells too:
Resist Energy
Detect Thoughts
See Invisibility
Knock
Darkvision

I've gotten along just fine as a sorcerer on many occasions with resist energy, darkvision and see invisibility as either scrolls or wands. (I haven't ever bothered with the rest, to tell the truth, at least not often enough to make it matter.) A couple scrolls of each will last me for a couple of levels, usually; it's an unusual campaign where you see more than three or four invisible opponents in the space of 15-20 encounters, for instance.

I continue to see the overpowered claims as overreactions, I'm afraid.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Really?

So giving the human sorcerer 2 more spells per level isn't overpowered because they didn't actually need any more spells?

Then, why not give the human sorcerer all the spells on the sor/wiz list as spells known? If he didn't need any more spells, that wouldn't be overpowered either, right?

Ken

 

[redboxrazor]

So giving the human sorcerer 2 more spells per level isn't overpowered because they didn't actually need any more spells?

Then, why not give the human sorcerer all the spells on the sor/wiz list as spells known? If he didn't need any more spells, that wouldn't be overpowered either, right?

Ken

Where are you getting 2 spells from? Only one additional spell is obtainable per level, per the new rules addition.

And yes, it's allowing the sorcerer some more versatility, but because the number of spells that can be cast per day doesn't change, and because the extra spell is always of a lower spell level, I don't see it as particularly game-changing.

It creates a bit more balance between the sorcerer and wizard in my opinion. The sorcerer can have (almost) as many spells as a wizard at most times, and can cast more spells per day, but the wizard gets all of the spells, and can spend his favored class bonus on extra HP/skill point, AND gets bonus magic-related feats every 5 levels.

They finally seem a little more on-par to me.

Of course, this is only assuming that you're a HUMAN sorcerer. Who knows what else is in store. We'll have to wait and see when more information is revealed.

 

[Shisumo]

So giving the human sorcerer 2 more spells per level isn't overpowered because they didn't actually need any more spells?

Then, why not give the human sorcerer all the spells on the sor/wiz list as spells known? If he didn't need any more spells, that wouldn't be overpowered either, right?

Ken

Ah, reductio ad absurdum, how I love thee so.

No, she doesn't need more spells known. She might want them, but she doesn't need them, and she probably wants more hit points and more skill points as well. Moreover, she gets more spells known as she levels up, so what we're talking about is how soon she's getting the particular spell(s) she's wanting.

You stipulated six 2nd-level spells that sorcerers are going to want - I pointed out that those six spells will eventually be available to many, if not most, sorcerers, without ever giving up the skill point(s) or hit point(s) they would get from their favored class otherwise.

What I'm trying to get at, here, is that we're not choosing between the best spells at each level and the hit point or skill point. We're choosing between the hit point/skill point and the 4th-, 5th-, 6th- or possbly even 8th- or 9th-best spells at every level, once you take into account all the spells known a sorcerer will eventually learn for a given level. By the time you're that far down the list, scrolls and wands are perfectly decent alternatives; you're honestly not likely to be casting those spells all that often anyway.

In point of fact, sorcerers already have access to those extra spells via magic items now - are you seriously concerned that these useful-on-occasion-only spells are game-breaking as things stand? Does not having to have a scroll really change that much?

The other thing you seem to be ignoring is that these spells known are coming at levels where your primary powers are spells a whole level higher; if they were at the highest level you could cast, it would be much more powerful, but 6th-best 2nd-level spells when you've already gotten your two favorite 3rd-level spells and one from a bloodline as well isn't nearly as cool.

 

[Psychotic Jim]

There's another blog preview post up http://paizo.com/paizo/blog

The page graphic reveals a list of class "archetypes" which trade out certain class features for others. It makes me think of the old 2e days of kits. The exceptions to this approach seem to the cleric, the sorcerer, and possibly the wizard/ The cleric gets, instead of new archetypes, a choice of "subdomains"- alternate, more specialized variants on the domains existent in the core rulebook. The sorcerer has new bloodlines to choose from. And for the wizard they're bringing back the elementalist schools of magic.

Other notables that share names with past editions include the Savage Skald (bard), Animal Shaman (druid), urban druid and urban ranger, Hospitalier (paladin), Drunken Master (monk), Zen Archer (monk), Acrobat (rogue), and Swashbuckler (rogue).

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

personally

I think there's a big difference between getting a new spell known at level 6 and level 11. And my list of six spells that were top tier was drawn from core rules only, and wasn't even exhaustive. I'm sure that as Paizo creates more spells, the incentive to take the spell over the HP will only increase.

And I don't dispute that the wizard is still competitive with the human sorcerer. My main concern , as I've stated repeatedly, is that a spell known is enough better than a HP to dictate that people wanting to play a sorcerer choose Human as their race.

Ken

 

[Shisumo]

I think there's a big difference between getting a new spell known at level 6 and level 11.

This is true. In fact, there's a difference between getting a new spell known at 6th level and one at 7th. I would personally almost always take the spell option on the even levels (not counting 2, obviously), and then take the hit point on the following odd level; the relative value of the option from one level to another is something else that seems to be getting ignored.

 

[redboxrazor]

I think there's a big difference between getting a new spell known at level 6 and level 11. And my list of six spells that were top tier was drawn from core rules only, and wasn't even exhaustive. I'm sure that as Paizo creates more spells, the incentive to take the spell over the HP will only increase.

And I don't dispute that the wizard is still competitive with the human sorcerer. My main concern , as I've stated repeatedly, is that a spell known is enough better than a HP to dictate that people wanting to play a sorcerer choose Human as their race.

Ken

There is still no consensus that a spell is always the better choice. Perhaps subjectively, but for a sorcerer who, on average, ends up with around 75-80 HP at level 20, a +25% HP plan is still viable.

You're right that I would be hard-pressed to play a non-human sorcerer at this point. My judgment is reserved until the rest of the material is made available. Perhaps some of the new bloodlines will have race requirements, etc, which will offset this advantage.