Pathfinder on the bookstore shelves? Forked Thread: The 3.5 renaissance!

[Henry]

I can't help but be a little annoyed by this thread, which muses wishfully at the ascension of a game liked by the OP made possible by the death of the game I like and play.

I don't see it that way, myself, but whatever does the trick of bringing in more gamers, is a fun "gateway" experience, and can get butts in seats around the gaming table (to paraphrase an old entertainment adage) then I don't care if it's 4E, Pathfinder, or Pokemon Emergency!

 

[Scribble]

This I agree with, partially. Dungeons and Dragons, being the first, and having a lot of early notoriety, made its own brand name from nothing, as well as creating an industry. Star Wars RPG derives marketshare primarily (at least initially) from the Star Wars franchise. Warcraft gets its name brand recognition from the computer game.

But look at White Wolf and Warhammer. They have an established industry name, created from nothing. There is nothing inherent in the name itself that lets you know what products they produce. I may be wrong here, never having played either system, but I think White Wolf is mostly a Live Action RPG, and Warhammer is mostly a tabletop miniatures war strategy game, right? I know there is a warhammer FRPG now, but I don't think it has anywhere near the marketshare in the tabletop rpg market that d20 based games have.

To be fair though White Wolf made a name for itself through the games it sold: Vampire (I get to play a Vampire?) Wherewolf (I get to play a werewolf?) and not through the name White Wolf.

Pathfinder... I get to find paths?

At the time Vampires and such were pretty big then, so I think the live action version had a little more help catching on (recognition wise) with the outside public because goth kids got to dress up and play vampires.

So while I agree, Pathfinder could stand to take a lions share of gamers who play 4e if 4e goes under (and I dissagree with your gut feeling) I don't think it will ever have the recognition that D&D has... Or that Whitewolf games have.

Not because I think it's a bad game, but because I don't see anything on the outside factoring in. (Like D&D being new, and negative publicity, and Vampire being about vampires in a time when people were into vampires. And its own share of negative publicity)

If that makes any sense.

 

[joethelawyer]

If it wants to be a big market, I would think it would have to capture that "gateway" appeal - otherwise, it would be niche, even more niche than D&D has been over the past eight years.

From Paizo's perspective, they don't have to "win the D&D war" to be a hit, but I'm just saying from Joe's hypothesis of "becoming market leader", I don't think the game system's design itself has that universal appeal needed for it. Heck, I'm not sure D&D does.

I agree that Pathfinder is a harder entry game to get into tabletop roleplaying with than say, Castles and Crusades, or the Basic Boxed Set I started with in 1984. Your post makes me wonder though, would it be a good idea for Pathfinder to have an entry-level boxed set or some easier form of their game for entry level players? Seems so to me.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

But look at White Wolf and Warhammer. They have an established industry name, created from nothing. There is nothing inherent in the name itself that lets you know what products they produce. I may be wrong here, never having played either system, but I think White Wolf is mostly a Live Action RPG, and Warhammer is mostly a tabletop miniatures war strategy game, right?

Right on the second - Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is and always has been a sideline compared to the Warhammer Fantasy Battles wargame - but, while White Wolf was involved in the Live-Action boom of the Nineties, their games have always been tabletop games first and foremost.

Frankly, if you don't know enough about the industry to know about White Wolf's business, the second biggest company in tabletop roleplaying games for about a decade, you don't know enough to even begin to speculate about what Wizards of the Coast will do, how Paizo Publishing could take over their place as top dog of roleplaying, anything . . . and all of your speculation is worth about as much as my opinion of Ugandan politics: nothing whatsoever.

 

[scruffygrognard]

I'm a strong supporter of the OGL and all Paizo is doing with it, but I'm personally unhappy with the design work I've seen for it. What I've seen makes it MORE complex than what it would be replacing, not less, making it a preferable choice for gamers who want that extra layer of "fiddly bits" ("fiddly bits" is a little derogatory, but I can't think of a better term for all the extra minutiae of multiclassing, the extra feats, the extra class powers, the extra rules, the enhanced combat rules, etc. that Pathfinder has) but it doesn't strike me as a good choice for either me, or for new players who want something for just breaking out the books and playing for a few hours.

When Paizo first announced Pathfinder I was totally excited about the prospect of them streamlining, cleaning up and overhauling 3.X. Within a few months I came to the realization that their revisions did little to streamline or clean up the game. In an effort to maintain backwards compatibility they've only come up with a heavily houseruled version of 3.X that doesn't address the core problems with 3.X.

Those problems could only be addressed with a MAJOR overhaul.

To me, Pathfinder has too many changes to by truly 3.5 compatible but far too few changes to be an elegant successor to 3.5. As much as I don't like 4th edition and as tired as I've gotten of 3.5, I don't see myself being a Pathfinder fan.

 

[Remathilis]

To me, Pathfinder has too many changes to by truly 3.5 compatible but far too little changes to be an elegant successor to 3.5. As much as I don't like 4th edition and as tired as I've gotten of 3.5, I don't see myself being a Pathfinder fan.

Except for the 4e thing I agree with you.

 

[mxyzplk]

Y'a;; do realize Pathfinder, the RPG, hasn't been published yet? They made one print run of the beta, but the real thing will be coming out at Gen Con. So fretting about how they'll never get new players without having their game in stores is a bit premature.

Their 3.5e stuff now is mostly adventures and supplements to support those adventures; even in the game lines bookstores support, adventures are rare - you're lucky if they have a D&D one, and never for the "second tier games."

Now, it would be interesting to hear whether they do plan to target bookstores or not when they release.

 

[joethelawyer]

Right on the second - Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is and always has been a sideline compared to the Warhammer Fantasy Battles wargame - but, while White Wolf was involved in the Live-Action boom of the Nineties, their games have always been tabletop games first and foremost.

Frankly, if you don't know enough about the industry to know about White Wolf's business, the second biggest company in tabletop roleplaying games for about a decade, you don't know enough to even begin to speculate about what Wizards of the Coast will do, how Paizo Publishing could take over their place as top dog of roleplaying, anything . . . and all of your speculation is worth about as much as my opinion of Ugandan politics: nothing whatsoever.

Just because they are the second biggest company that publishes in the tabletop roleplaying game industry doesn't mean the revenue streams they get from publishing in the said industry are second only to WOTC. Nor does it mean they are poised to move into the number one position should the number one player get out of the industry.

 

[FATDRAGONGAMES]

Let's keep one thing in perspective here regarding stores currently carrying Pathfinder. In its current state, it is a 3.5 product and few, if any, stores are ordering much in the way of 3.5 support products with 4E out. Once Paizo's core books are out, and the adventure paths switch to those rules, then it will be a different situation.

 

[joethelawyer]

Their 3.5e stuff now is mostly adventures and supplements to support those adventures; even in the game lines bookstores support, adventures are rare - you're lucky if they have a D&D one, and never for the "second tier games."

Now, it would be interesting to hear whether they do plan to target bookstores or not when they release.

That's the main point of the thread. The whole "can they take over number one if WOTC stops playing in the tabletop rpg sandbox" question is secondary. I wouldn't want the discussion to devolve into a "who's gonna be the new #1" thread. I don't think I should have added that part to the OP, but its too late now to delete it.