Pathfinder on the bookstore shelves? Forked Thread: The 3.5 renaissance!

Wicht

Hero
The Book's A Million above Wheeling, WV carries a good bit of Paizo's work, including most of the first AP, a couple modules, their flip mats and some map packs. I've also bought some packs of item cards there. I look for them to certainly have the RPG when it is released.

On the other hand, the Waldenbooks near me carries very little RPG related material, just half a shelf of 4e.
 

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ProfessorPain

First Post
Let's keep one thing in perspective here regarding stores currently carrying Pathfinder. In its current state, it is a 3.5 product and few, if any, stores are ordering much in the way of 3.5 support products with 4E out. Once Paizo's core books are out, and the adventure paths switch to those rules, then it will be a different situation.

I see a bunch of "3.5" products hitting the shelves at my game stores. I also see plenty of 4E material. There seems to be markets for both. And thats good. We are starting to see something like we had in the 80s, when there were a bunch of smaller games to choose from; and everythign wasn't united under a single system (as it was under 3.5). I see plenty of Savage Worlds, 3.5, 4E, d20 Modern systems, True20, to be happy. My hope is there will be more competing systems released in the near future. Lord knows I could always use more options.

I hope everybody is a success. This bickering over which system everyone should play, is just hurting the hobby. We are a small enough niche as it is. We don't need to fight over editions and game systems. If you like something, play it. If don't, play something else. But dedicating your life to eradicating a system you don't prefer is beyond sad, and it has the potential to disuade people purchasing them. Which hurts all of us.
 

mhacdebhandia

Explorer
Just because they are the second biggest company that publishes in the tabletop roleplaying game industry doesn't mean the revenue streams they get from publishing in the said industry are second only to WOTC. Nor does it mean they are poised to move into the number one position should the number one player get out of the industry.
Your statements are technically correct, but irrelevant.

When I say "second-biggest company in the roleplaying industry" I don't mean "company with the second-largest employee roster" or "company with the second-most valuable assets". I mean that White Wolf's games, collectively, occupy the number 2 position of sales, after Wizards of the Coast's Dungeons & Dragons line.

Yeah, White Wolf has over a half-dozen games being published at any one time to hold onto that spot, but so what? Wizards of the Coast also publishes a lot more books for D&D than White Wolf publishes for any one of their games, and collectively White Wolf's annual releases are pretty close in number to Wizards of the Coast's D&D releases. I think it's hard to honestly argue that their revenue stream from publishing roleplaying games isn't second place behind Wizards of the Coast.

Now, I don't think that White Wolf would become as big a juggernaut as Wizards of the Coast if the latter were to eject itself from the roleplaying market. The reason Wizards of the Coast is on top is because of D&D; whoever publishes D&D, unless they do an absolutely awful job handling the property (I'm talking Palladium Books-level incompetence, here) will probably be on top for the foreseeable future.

If Wizards of the Coast quit publishing roleplaying games and kept the D&D brand to itself, thus basically destroying the game (and that's a big "as if!" from me, for the record), then I think what would probably happen is that a) a bunch of people who play only D&D would probably quit gaming; b) a bunch of people who play only D&D will find themselves an alternative system; c) over time some more-or-less recognisable successor to D&D as the major single fantasy system played by gamers will emerge, but d) in a scenario where D&D-only gamers are forced to either quit or seek an alternative, I don't see any compelling reason why an actual D&D derivative would become their game of choice.

Certainly I think Pathfinder would pick up some people, but probably fewer than you might imagine simply because we're in the post-Third Edition era; going from D&D to Pathfinder because the former was cancelled is a much more attractive proposition when the D&D you're leaving is closer (as was Third Edition) to the new game. If Fourth Edition D&D were shut down tomorrow, I wouldn't go to Pathfinder; I also suspect that most people who reject Fourth Edition are simply sticking with Third Edition, not making the switch to Paizo's game.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
The book and hobby trade always seemed secondary to me.

Which might mean that Paizo is already ahead of the curve.

I don't think the printed book RPG is going the way of the dodo any time in the next 10 years, but I do think that new business models will be launched, and could prove more successful -- subscription, something like the DDI, d20srd.org, whatever. Paizo is well-equipped to bring its audience in via the web in a way that WotC never managed to do.
 

Mercurius

Legend
The Way of the Future seems to be fewer printed books and more online material. Duh, obviously. So you have your core rule books and some campaign settings and other "luxury" items, but everything else is online: D&D insider, PDFs, etc. Something like Martial Power is a joke, imo: It isn't really a book but more a collection of bits and pieces (I bought it when it came out and have barely looked through it...I'm thinking of selling it). I only bought it because it was the hardcover-of-the-month and WotC obviously has me hooked, but I think this sort of thing will wane. And I almost prefer PDF adventures because you don't feel as bad pulling pages out, writing notes, etc.

t.
 

Keefe the Thief

Adventurer
This "Hasbro abandon D&D, know real soon!" idea again? Haven´t we been hearing that since, what, 2000?
Anyway, look at Germany as an example: As long as "big company" was still there (Schmidt Spiele in this case) cramming the No. 1 RPG into mainstream stores, other (smaller) games were ordered too. After they went bust, all RPGs vanished out of book stores and board game stores over time.
If D&D vanishes from bookshelves, all other games will too, over time. I doubt that even the big 2 (White Wolf w. Exalted, WFRP) have enough traction to stay. Perhaps, WW, now that they´re owned by CCP

I mean, TDE is still Germanys top selling game. But there is simply no marketing power behind it strong enough to push the game into mainstream stores.
 
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S'mon

Legend
I suspect that whatever game is marketed under the D&D brand will remain the dominant RPG.

I guess there is an issue - if WoTC stops making an RPG called D&D, what will then become the top RPG?

First off, if they license the name D&D to an RPG maker, that game will become the top RPG. It's certainly possible that Paizo could publish an RPG called D&D, while WoTC focused on D&D branded minis, card games, online stuff etc.

If there were no RPG called D&D on the market, I don't know what would happen. It doesn't seem entirely beyond the realm of possibility that Pathfinder could then become the biggest selling RPG, though it seems more likely it'd be a White Wolf property or a license, eg a Star Wars RPG. A different, possibly OGL & SRD-based fantasy game could also become dominant; maybe a completely new game. The game would have to be decent and it would take a company with a lot of marketing muscle; the latter factor excludes Castles & Crusades.

In any case though the RPG market would shrink considerably without D&D.
 


S'mon

Legend
Something just occurred to me - re Trademark law; "Dungeons & Dragons" has always been used as a generic term for tabletop RPGs by many people, especially non-gamers. If Hasbro cancel the D&D RPG and sit on the brand, after 5 years the trade mark becomes potentially invalid for non-use (under UK law, I expect US is similar), while "D&D" probably would become a fully generic term. Eventually, anyone would be able to use it as a generic term for RPGs.

I can't see Hasbro letting that happen. There are strong IP reasons to keep an RPG called "D&D" on the market, even if it's making a loss and all their profit comes from non-RPG applications of the D&D brand.
 

Keefe the Thief

Adventurer
It doesn't seem entirely beyond the realm of possibility that Pathfinder could then become the biggest selling RPG...

Sorry for the snippage, but: yes, it is. To conquer the market, you either need

a) mass-market appeal, enough to become a fad (V:tM / D&D)
or
b) enormous marketing power and a big brand name.

Pathfinder has neither. It is - rightly so - focused on experienced D&D DMs who want to continue playing the game they love.
 

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