PCs vs. DMPCs

[KesselZero]

Here's something I really miss in 4e, and would like to see in 5e: the ability, as a DM, to create an NPC in the same way I'd create a PC, then have it fight my players. What I mean is that in 4e everything other than a PC is treated as a monster: orcs, horses, mayors, guardsmen, BBEGs, etc. etc. etc. I would really love to be able to roll up stats for my Evil Cult Leader Boss as a 10th-level wizard, set my PCs against him, and know how much XP and treasure to award if they beat him. I don't like having to use the "10th-level-wizard" monster. Why would an NPC wizard have a totally different power set from a PC wizard?

Thoughts?

 

[tlantl]

Some of us never had this problem. But from what I can see there's nothing stopping you from wasting a couple of hours making up a character that's only going to die a horrible death.

There was a time when your average bad guy actually had a chance of winning a fight. from the looks of things they will again.

If the developers go that route with the monsters then I'm going to be one unhappy camper.

 

[herrozerro]

Because all wizards didnt go to hogwarts? Why should all wizards be the same?

 

[IronWolf]

Here's something I really miss in 4e, and would like to see in 5e: the ability, as a DM, to create an NPC in the same way I'd create a PC, then have it fight my players. What I mean is that in 4e everything other than a PC is treated as a monster: orcs, horses, mayors, guardsmen, BBEGs, etc. etc. etc. I would really love to be able to roll up stats for my Evil Cult Leader Boss as a 10th-level wizard, set my PCs against him, and know how much XP and treasure to award if they beat him. I don't like having to use the "10th-level-wizard" monster. Why would an NPC wizard have a totally different power set from a PC wizard?

Thoughts?

I am not sure what stops you from doing this? Can't you just build up your NPC using the PC rules and run with that?

 

[renau1g]

Then do it. You can make up a PC (with standard rules) and then use it against the PC's . I would avoid the healing effects as that tends to drag out a fight, but if you say built an evil adventuring party as a hit squad against the PC's after they've been throwing wrenches in the BBEG's plans, I think that could be a memorable encounter. Just make sure to use the rules for inherent bonuses, lest the PC's get their hands on tons of magical gear .

With the number of immediate actions available it may be challenging as a DM to run 5 or so creatures with tons of actions and most monsters/enemies don't last 5+ rounds so having tons of powers may not be able to be used, plus the evil adventurer's could blow all of their Daily powers in the 1 encounter, while the PC's have to worry about saving some of their resources for later encounters. The evil PC's would obviously therefore have a huge advantage without this restriction (same thing I saw in 3.5e, enemy wizards could go hog wild and blow their load of high-level spells in the combat, while the PC's had to conserve)

 

[herrozerro]

I am not sure what stops you from doing this? Can't you just build up your NPC using the PC rules and run with that?

Or even better, use the math for defenses and hp but give it all pc class powers.

 

[herrozerro]

More seriously though the dmg does have rules for this, its basically what i said before, just a monster with class powers. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Astrosicebear]

NPC's were horrible to create in 3e. Especially beyond 5th or 6th level, you got into tons of magic items etc. Took forever if you wanted to make a party of evils. Glad 4e gave DM's some good tools, and it looks like 5E, when they get around to monster design, will take some of that knowledge and move it forward.

 

[KesselZero]

Right, but how would you award XP and treasure for this? Sorry if I wasn't clear in my original post. Obviously I could roll up some dudes and have them fight my players, but I wouldn't know how much XP a 10th-level fighter is worth; that's what gives me trouble. Unless I'm totally missing a set of rules that addresses this, in which case I feel dumb, I wouldn't know how much of a challenge an 8th-level party of evil adventurers would be to a 10th-level party of PCs (for example). That would make it tough to balance the encounter and award treasure and XP.

As to the issue of why should all wizards feel the same, of course they shouldn't. But it always seems weird to me in 4e that a 10th-level PC wizard has dozens of powers to choose from, whereas a 10th-level monster wizard only has a couple.

 

[Dragonblade]

Right, but how would you award XP and treasure for this? Sorry if I wasn't clear in my original post. Obviously I could roll up some dudes and have them fight my players, but I wouldn't know how much XP a 10th-level fighter is worth; that's what gives me trouble. Unless I'm totally missing a set of rules that addresses this, in which case I feel dumb, I wouldn't know how much of a challenge an 8th-level party of evil adventurers would be to a 10th-level party of PCs (for example). That would make it tough to balance the encounter and award treasure and XP.

As to the issue of why should all wizards feel the same, of course they shouldn't. But it always seems weird to me in 4e that a 10th-level PC wizard has dozens of powers to choose from, whereas a 10th-level monster wizard only has a couple.

You can absolutely make a villain in 4e using the PC creation rules. I did it. Though only once, because it was far easier for me in the long run to just use the monster rules.

But you certainly can and it works fine. As far as XP goes, I don't see why they would be any different than a standard monster of their level. Thats what I used.