D&D 5E People don't read the 5E DMG for a reason

SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself
The DMG does have a solid explanation of what an adventuring day looks like - using the entire XP budget of your party before the get a long rest. This can be done as a combination of encounters of various difficulties.
I couldn't disagree with this more. Encounter budgets over a day aren't a measure of that a day of adventuring will entail. Let's start with the fact that the challenge rating system is wildly out of whack.

And then there are wildly different parties that favor different play styles.

And then there's the swinginess of the combat system that can make later encounters just impossible after some bad die rolls.

Not to mention that the party is likely to use resources for things that aren't just combat encounters.

There is a serious discussion of how to run an adventuring day that I'd like to see in the DMG as it's one of the hardest things to do for new DMs and low level adventures.
 
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michaeljpastor

Adventurer
Yes but they were insulting also to my 8yo kid (the sections on tracking monsters HP and making funny voices for NPCs). Having a book with both very trivial "first time" instructions mixed up in random places with otherwise much more complicated RAW instructions is disfunctional book design. At the very least, the book should separate the instructions for dummies from the instructions for the average reader, which is generally not a dummy if they decided to pick up the DMG.
Nobody is praising the organization of the DMG - in fact that has been the universal thread throughout this thread.
 

michaeljpastor

Adventurer
It's honestly really interesting to me how the discourse on this has changed over the past 4-5 years.

I was straight-up told, on this very forum, IIRC in the same year as this thread originally started, that:
(1) the DMG was perfectly fine, and perhaps even among the best DMGs ever written;
(2) the DMG has absolutely no need whatsoever to be a guide, which could instead be handled by Reddit/YouTube/social media in general;
(3) to alter the existing 5e DMG so that it would in fact guide new DMs would seriously damage the book.

I find the near-180 turnaround of the general response really quite fascinating.
I think all three have been concurrent, just that each voice has been louder at different times.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
The 5e DMG's subtext is "Intermediate DM's DMG." It's written for DMs who kind of have a sense for what they're doing, and have a bit of experience under their belts.

In my observation, it's not a good orientation to beginner DMs and its value drops off for advanced DMs.
 

ECMO3

Hero
And this is part of the problem with saying "well, people play it, so they must like it." Champion is one of the most played Fighter subclasses. It also had sub-50% satisfaction. For some reason, people play things that they find dissatisfying. It's almost like popularity isn't actually a useful proxy for whether people like the design of that thing.

I would question whether the surveys are a useful proxy for satisfaction. In other words are the surveys that indicate dissatisfaction with a Champion really reflective of the playing population or are they a biased sample reflective of the people who spend the time to take the survey?

I can say confidently a lot of people are going to be dissatisfied with a more complex fighter and even more will be dissatisfied with a more powerful fighter that is closer to a full caster at most levels in terms of power level. Yet these are the things that people are dissatisfied with about the champion.
 

ECMO3

Hero
It's the reason they tried (and thankfully failed) to change the Warlock into using the same spellcasting model as everyone else. They instead threw in the half-hearted "you can restore some of your spells, once a day" feature, which is better than nothing but really doesn't solve the problem.

But is it actually a problem? There was widespread dissatisfaction with the "fix" that actually did "solve" it.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I would question whether the surveys are a useful proxy for satisfaction. In other words are the surveys that indicate dissatisfaction with a Champion really reflective of the playing population or are they a biased sample reflective of the people who spend the time to take the survey?
So then, you admit that the process they've been using since the D&D Next playtest could have been skewed--damaged--by having biased samples? That their survey design sucks? That they just might have listened only to a skewed, unrepresentative few who demand things out of step with what would actually make players in general happier?

I can say confidently a lot of people are going to be dissatisfied with a more complex fighter
Really? Are you really sure about that? Because the explosion of comment and criticism that happened on this forum and others, in the wake of 5e's launch with nary a complex fighter to be seen--that the "Warlord Fighter" promises had manifestly failed to pan out--seems proof enough to me that there's a dedicated, serious fanbase there.

Not every subclass or class needs to be made for every person. Some things are made only for the fans of that thing. This should not surprise you in the least.

and even more will be dissatisfied with a more powerful fighter that is closer to a full caster at most levels in terms of power level.
Then show me the data. I know you've got this frankly bizarre argument that Fighter players want to play weak, incapable characters while the spellcasters rule the roost (despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary, including from WotC itself), so if you're going to be so confident in saying that, give me your data.

Yet these are the things that people are dissatisfied with about the champion.
They're dissatisfied with the Champion because it sucks, because it is a bad subclass, not because the idea of a simple, focused, no-frills subclass is bad.

Champions derive essentially all of their benefits from three things: Remarkable Athlete, an expanded crit range, and getting an extra fighting style. Of those three, the fighting style is the only vaguely-useful benefit, and that only for having both Archery and your preferred melee style. With the way actual 5e is played, parties rarely if ever face more than four combats a day--and often get less than two short rests on average. But in order for the Champion's extra damage--which purely comes from rolling additional dice, due to how 5e crits work--to keep up with the likes of a Battle Master, they must get on average enough extra attacks per short rest to match the BM's superiority dice per short rest.

Consider 11th level, when the Fighter gets 2x Extra Attack. Even if we are incredibly generous and assume three combats per short rest and six rounds per combat (which is absurdly long by 5e combat standards), a Fighter is only getting 3x(6x3+3) = 61 attack rolls per short rest. That means the very best an 11th-level Champion is getting is a bonus 3d12 per short rest--and only if she's wielding a greataxe. Meanwhile, Battle Master maneuvers are granting a floor of +5d10 damage per short rest (and since most are "when you hit with an attack..." rather than "before you make an attack..." you are guaranteed to get those dice as long as you actually use them.) So even when we stack the deck ridiculously far in the Champion's favor, the Battle Master is still ahead. This isn't even comparing to spellcasters; it's a comparison purely within the Fighter class itself. Compared to a spellcaster in the typical way 5e is actually played (where spellcasters, quite rationally, lobby to take long rests as often as possible), the Champion is simply left in the dust. The comparison only gets worse at earlier or later levels, despite both the further-increased Champ crit range and the addition of further Action Surges and Extra Attacks for all Fighters (which have no meaningful effect on how much extra damage Battle Masters can do.)

The whole point of a basic option is that it's supposed to be reliably better in general, shorn of detail and context. The Battle Master should not be generically outclassing the Champion just by using its basic tools in the most basic way possible. BMs should have to work for it--starting out a hair behind, but getting a leg up if they happen to have the right maneuvers at the right time. Champion fails at this. Doubly so because Remarkable Athlete is and always has been a joke, and having a second fighting style, while not at all a bad benefit, is nowhere near enough to hang an entire subclass upon.

ALL of the really really fundamental archetypes of 5e should have at least one "just really basic" option that is actually good, meaning, one that actually achieves design goals appropriate to that aim. For example, such options should be easy to use, while still remaining engaging and exciting--it should feel great to do whatever simple, straightforward thing that class does. There should be a simple spellcaster, that blows up enemies and has some basic "magic trick" or two. There should be a simple thief, who has feats of derring-do or Errol Flynn-esque panache and style. There should be a simple warrior, who just kicks ass and takes names, "I think Halo is a pretty cool guy, eh kills aliens and doesn't afraid of anything." And there should be a simple priest, who can get their god to do them a solid now and then, and reattach your face when something has torn it off.

5e has not generally done a very good job of the design on this front. It has attempted this with only two of the three above (Life Cleric is, bluntly, not simple enough), and those attempts were pretty blatantly lackluster, albeit for different reasons. (The Champion is simply a bad Fighter subclass when judged against its fellow subclasses, though Banneret is a close second; the Rogue chassis in its entirety is simply not that great, and only rarely allowed to exceed those limits.)
 
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I think it assumes a either very specific type of play (lots and lots of combat) or it assumes social and exploration encounters count, but doesn't have rules for them. Level Up has lots of rules for exploration, even to the point of giving challenges Challenge Ratings and XP values, and IIRC the MCDM game is going to have fairly strong rules for social challenges, so both of those things are extremely doable. 6-8 encounters per day is fine if D&D supported social and exploration with as much detail as it supported combat.
Since we are talking about attrition of character’s resources, social and non-combat encounters count only to the extent that they use up character resources to the same extent as a combat.
I do run both fulsome exploration and social encounters but it is rare that an exploration encounter consumes the same amount of resources as a combat and unheard of that a social encounter does so.
 

michaeljpastor

Adventurer
Since we are talking about attrition of character’s resources, social and non-combat encounters count only to the extent that they use up character resources to the same extent as a combat.
I do run both fulsome exploration and social encounters but it is rare that an exploration encounter consumes the same amount of resources as a combat and unheard of that a social encounter does so.

"Social as a resource" is actually a very intriguing idea. Even the most extraverted extravert needs some "me time" to recharge, if Jungian psychology has any merit (which is does in my training and experience). Even if meritless in real life, modeling it for the game isn't beyond the pale. "Only so many Persuasion checks/day for everybody and more available for specialists" has possibilities. Definitely needs some further development, but now you have my wheels spinning.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
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"Social as a resource" is actually a very intriguing idea. Even the most extraverted extravert needs some "me time" to recharge, if Jungian psychology has any merit (which is does in my training and experience). Even if meritless in real life, modeling it for the game isn't beyond the pale. "Only so many Persuasion checks/day for everybody and more available for specialists" has possibilities. Definitely needs some further development, but now you have my wheels spinning.
It works in fate because stress tracks reset so frequently and very difficult to clear consequence slots are shared. I've never played it, but think I've heard that it works in games like Warhammer fantasy because of mechanics that force the players hands and strip away the ability to just ignore consequences and godmode through problems like that guy in paintball who never felt the hit*.

all five.. again
 

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