PHBII: The Knight (Passed)

[Patlin]

Since this one is readilly available for review online, I'll post this proposal now even though I don't have PHBII with me.

The Knight

It's an interesting class. Non spellcasting melee types are generally not my personal cup of tea, but the Knight has an interesting schtick. It's the only D&D class I know that mirrors the "tank" roll of MMRPG gaming -- I leave it to the reader whether that's good, bad, or just interesting.

Basically your big, brash-but-charismatic guy in lots of armor and a shield painted with the words "Hit me!"

Edit:

The following changes from RAW apply to this proposal:

- Fighting Challenge: [Mind affecting] (though as it targets the knight, still usefull against opponents who are immune to mind affecting stuff)
- Test of Mettle: [Mind affecting, Compulsion] The opponent does not need to attack, but if he does, he must attack the knight according to his abilities and normal tactics (he could also flee, if that is more desirable)
- Call to Battle: [Mind affecting]
- Daunting Challenge: [Mind affecting, Fear]
- Bond of Loyalty: [Mind affecting]
- Loyal Beyond Death: [Mind affecting]

 

[Rystil Arden]

Since this one is readilly available for review online, I'll post this proposal now even though I don't have PHBII with me.

The Knight

It's an interesting class. Non spellcasting melee types are generally not my personal cup of tea, but the Knight has an interesting schtick. It's the only D&D class I know that mirrors the "tank" roll of MMRPG gaming -- I leave it to the reader whether that's good, bad, or just interesting.

Basically your big, brash-but-charismatic guy in lots of armor and a shield painted with the words "Hit me!"

I think the knight is a fine class, but in my opinion, it needs to have its challenge changed to be a Mind-Affecting ability like a Bard's Fascinating music. If it isn't mind-affecting, enemies should be able to ignore it if they specifically came into the battle telling themself that they won't attack the knight no matter what, and the knight would prefer the former to that, I think. That one change and I'll vote yes.

 

[Patlin]

It's *very* bizzarre that it's not allready listed that way. Some of the effects should also have a [Compulsion] or [Fear] tag. However, let me suggest that this one:

Fighting Challenge (Ex): As a swift action, you can issue a challenge against a single opponent. The target of this ability must have an Intelligence of 5 or higher, have a language of some sort, and have a CR greater than or equal to your character level minus 2. If it does not meet these requirements, a use of this ability is expended without effect.

If the target does meet the conditions given above, you gain a +1 morale bonus on Will saves and a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against the target of this ability. You fight with renewed vigor and energy by placing your honor and reputation on the line. If your chosen foe reduces you to 0 or fewer hit points, you lose two uses of your knight's challenge ability for the day because of the blow to your ego and confidence from this defeat.

The effect of a fighting challenge lasts for a number of rounds equal to 5 + your Charisma bonus (if any).

ought to be considered an effect that targets the Knight himself, much like a morale bonus from a bard song or such. If the Knight wants to challenge a vampire, go for it... but compelling a vampire to attack or frightening it shouldn't work given the immunity of undead to mind effecting stuff.

 

[Rystil Arden]

It's *very* bizzarre that it's not allready listed that way. Some of the effects should also have a [Compulsion] or [Fear] tag. However, let me suggest that this one:



ought to be considered an effect that targets the Knight himself, much like a morale bonus from a bard song or such. If the Knight wants to challenge a vampire, go for it... but compelling a vampire to attack or frightening it shouldn't work given the immunity of undead to mind effecting stuff.

Yes, that one would target the Knight himself, though it is still Mind-Affecting, just to his own mind.

I agree that it is bizarre that it isn't listed as Mind-Affecting, so if there is no dissent to that change so far, I vote YES to Knight with [Mind-Affecting] added to his Challenges and [Fear] or [Compulsion] added where appropriate.

 

[Knight Otu]

We should talk about the extend that the Test of Mettle ability forces an opponent's behaviour.
Is it:
1) The opponent must attack the knight according to his abilities and normal tactics, or
2) The opponent does not need to attack, but if he does, he must attack the knight according to his abilities and normal tactics (he could also flee, if that is more desirable)?

 

[Patlin]

Creatures that fail this save are forced to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets. If a foe attacks by casting a spell or using a supernatural ability, he must target you with the attack or include you in the effect's area.

By RAW, I think an opponent that chooses to do something other than attack is entirely free to do so. Option 2.

 

[Patlin]

Also, the ability specifically states he can attack someone other than the knight if attacking the knight would require him to take an AOO. It's pretty limited.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Also, the ability specifically states he can attack someone other than the knight if attacking the knight would require him to take an AOO. It's pretty limited.

No, it doesn't--I wish it did. It is very specific:

An opponent compelled to act in this manner is not thrown into a mindless rage and does not have to move to attack you in melee if doing so would provoke attacks of opportunity against him. In such a case, he can use ranged attacks against you or attack any opponents he threatens as normal.

So it says that if the opponent can't melee the Knight without an AoO, she has to use ranged weapons on the knight or attack someone she threatens. She still can't just close into melee with someone else unless they are in threatened range.

Also note that if there are no AoOs involved, then the opponent is forced to move into melee to attack the Knight.

 

[Patlin]

No, it doesn't--I wish it did. It is very specific:



So it says that if the opponent can't melee the Knight without an AoO, she has to use ranged weapons on the knight or attack someone she threatens. She still can't just close into melee with someone else unless they are in threatened range.

Also note that if there are no AoOs involved, then the opponent is forced to move into melee to attack the Knight.

Ah, I see the distinction. The section you quoted does prevent the Knight from using the ability to simply "pull a monster off" another character in many situations, but you're absolutely right that my original comment overlooked a number of possibilities. Still, the ability ought to do something, so I'm not terribly upset to discover it does limit the activites of the targets in some meaningfull ways.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Ah, I see the distinction. The section you quoted does prevent the Knight from using the ability to simply "pull a monster off" another character in many situations, but you're absolutely right that my original comment overlooked a number of possibilities. Still, the ability ought to do something, so I'm not terribly upset to discover it does limit the activites of the targets in some meaningfull ways.

If the player of the mage purposefully declines to threaten her adjacent squares, the Knight can pull the monster off. Of course, that leaves the mage with many other problems. I think the ability is fine if it is labeled as Mind-Affecting. Anything less makes no sense.