Piracy And Other Malfeasance

[Umbran]

To follow up this pointless nitpick with another one.
If theft is depriving someone of their property without their permission:
Piracy is robbery AS a method of theft. It IS theft.

My nitpick wasn't pointless. You just apparently missed the point.

To be clear: The point was to point out violence as a greater issue of moral concern than property crime.

 

[Imaculata]

And to echo Umbran's other point, I also have no interest in having my players play villainous pirates who commit atrocities. Realism serves only to help make the setting feel more believable, but ends where the fun does. Anything that I do not consider fun content, no matter how realistic, I leave out. I straight up ask my players during our session 0 to come up with pirate characters who are not villains. In the end, it is a D&D campaign with magic, monsters and heroic pc's. Anyone who is not on board with that mission statement, had better find a different table.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Its not actually hard to make even somewhat dodgy protagonists better than the opposition. Have them people who rob from the well-off, aren't particularly murderous as long as the victim cooperates, and then have a lot of slavers, dark cultists, and rich people who are consistently abusing their lessers. Corrupt leaders help, too; if you're got a bunch of nobility that are basically abusive and generally rotten, restrained bandits, even if they're self-interested, aren't going to look bad by comparison.

 

[Argyle King]

My nitpick wasn't pointless. You just apparently missed the point.

To be clear: The point was to point out violence as a greater issue of moral concern than property crime.

I'm not sure that's a point of morality that is widely accepted.

Certainly, as living people, we have comparative measurements concerning how various crimes may be viewed. Still, I would posit that there are a lot of scenarios that greatly challenge those comparisons -and the aforementioned one in particular, even before we add complications such as magic, demons, or any number of other things that may be derived from the genre of an adventure.

For example: Killing a hungry person trying to steal a loaf of bread? I would likely view that as morally wrong, even if the person were breaking the law.

However, if the PCs are on a long voyage at sea and food shortages occur due to a member of the crew stealing from the pantry, I see that as a very different situation. In such a case, I feel that a violent response to property crime could be justified.

Taking things a step further, there are also situations (in ttrpgs) in which the property crime may involve taking a magic item from someone. As being deprived of such an item may cause life-changing detriment to a creature/town/kingdom/whatever, I posit that there are times when a violence response could be justifiable.

 

[Umbran]

I'm not sure that's universally true across game systems.

Well, guess what? I didn't suggest it was! Nor does the discussion require universal truth!

Aramis said, "...the average dungeon crawler is a serial murder and robbery team event." (emphasis mine).

I responded saying that I think "most" published adventures provide a framing such that this isn't true.

Nothing here about universal truths. Only discussion of averages and overall leanings.

Even if it were, that would only cover "published adventures."

Yes. If you (generic, not Argyle King, specifically) want to make an assertion about non-published things that folks do at home, you really need to provide some support for how you came by information about what's going on in thousands of private games if you want to be taken seriously.

Edit: You addressed that question in a post that I didn't see while typing this.

Heck, I partially addressed it in my first post in the thread.

 

[Argyle King]

1) Well, guess what? I didn't suggest it was! Nor does the discussion require universal truth!

Aramis said, "...the average dungeon crawler is a serial murder and robbery team event." (emphasis mine).

I responded saying that I think "most" published adventures provide a framing such that this isn't true.

Nothing here about universal truths. Only discussion of averages and overall leanings.



2) Yes. If you (generic, not Argyle King, specifically) want to make an assertion about non-published things that folks do at home, you really need to provide some support for how you came by information about what's going on in thousands of private games if you want to be taken seriously.



3) Heck, I partially addressed it in my first post in the thread.

1) "Averages and overall leanings" would be contextually consistent with my response addressing things such as wide acceptances.

2) Certainly, I cannot say what every game in every group may be like.

As the discussion includes things such as morality and various levels of criminality are culturally contrasted, existing within the world and having lived among a variety of cultures also contributed to the content of my response.

3) Good. That ongoing process tends to be how constructive discussion occurs.

I appreciate that you did share that, for you personally, you approach the OP's posed question similar to how contemporary D&D's Published Adventures do.

 

[Umbran]

I'm not sure that's a point of morality that is widely accepted.

I think the concept is part of the major moral frameworks followed by billions around the world. Alas most of those frameworks are ensconced in religions, and so are not really open to discussion here.

I might direct you to the punishments levied by criminal justice systems for property crime vs violent crime, as an indication of the underlying morals of various cultures around the world, but that takes us into politics, and so would also be inappropriate.

Thankfully, in the end, I'm comfortable with you not being sure.

For example: Killing a hungry person trying to steal a loaf of bread? I would likely view that as morally wrong, even if the person were breaking the law.

In Les Misérables, (the novel, published in 1862), Javert commits suicide when he realizes that his moral judgements based on property crime run contrary to the actual morals seen in Valjean, and by extension many of the criminals Javert has punished in his life.

However, if the PCs are on a long voyage at sea and food shortages occur due to a member of the crew stealing from the pantry, I see that as a very different situation. In such a case, I feel that a violent response to property crime could be justified.

See below...

Taking things a step further, there are also situations (in ttrpgs) in which the property crime may involve taking a magic item from someone. As being deprived of such an item may cause life-changing detriment to a creature/town/kingdom/whatever, I posit that there are times when a violence response could be justifiable.

I believe you'll find that generally real-world justice systems handle actions that threaten lives separately from any attendant property crime. We have various forms and levels of "Endangerment" as a separate crime, for example.

 

[payn]

I fully endorse this statement. Great show!

Gotta triple down on Black Sails! This show is mastercraft in exposition.

 

[TheSword]

Gotta triple down on Black Sails! This show is mastercraft in exposition.

It also does the shifting alliances very very well. It’s essentially a gangster story. It helps that from the protagonists point of view the ‘prey’ is a fantastically rich and exploitative empire.

the pirates are outlaws… and if Captain Flint isn’t justified he is at least understandable and sympathetic. The last 2 episodes of series 2 are one of the most powerful and moving things I’ve seen on TV. All the barbaric acts of Flints moral relativity are explained by the reveal - and then inflamed. Brutal and heartbreaking.

 

[Reynard]

It also does the shifting alliances very very well. It’s essentially a gangster story.

I should try that show again. I think I watched the first episode and liked it but my wife was less interested.