<< PLANESCAPE >> How do you defeat the Lady of Pain?

[Bendris Noulg]

<snip>Interesting, I don't know such.
No, but it is a loophole that both Aoskar and Vecna used. Aoskar ended up the worse, while Vecna... he got banished somewhere I think, but only with the PC's help.

<snip>

I never said that. I said Vecna exploited a loophole ie becoming a deity inside Sigil.<snip>

But it's not a loophole.

Gods cannot enter Sigil does not = Gods cannot be in Sigil.

If no God entered Sigil, there's no actual loophole.

<snip>Obviously, she does have some power. The question is how does she get it and how much does she have? Even with DVD, the question is still open to interpretation, the module sheds only a little more light on the subject.

She still is. I don't know how DVD destroys her enigmatic nature. Care to explain?

Not saying it did. I'm saying that making her defeatable does.

So? It contains enough Planescape references to be 'Planescape' enough for me. Obviously we have very different ideas of canon information here.

"Planescape enough" shows my opinion. Hormel Chili is "chili enough", after all.

Good for you.

Nifty, eh?

I'm pretty sure that some Archdevils and Demon Princes working together could come up with a way to spread a religion of the Lady across the planes. At the very least, they could do that.

Hmmm... Start the religion on a couple score of Prime Worlds and then hold a mass pilgrimage to the "holy city" ala Jonestown? That's a thought...

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Planescape hijacked way to may cosmologies.

There was only one cosmology at the time.

If anything, it made sense out of the drop-everything-in manner which the planes were developed to begin with.

 

[herald]

Yes. Ask any Dragonlance fan where Soth is, and then ask a Ravenloft fan. A "seal of approval" is the difference between someone's idea for an adventure and the actual conditions of a setting

Soth escaped Ravenloft. He's home again.

Want some real fun? Read the Lucas Movies vs Books debate Star Wars players have from time to time... Those get really interesting.

not relevant. Not a apples to apples comparison. What we are talking about at adventures. They make up the Canon.

Who says it's canon? The licensed site bringing Planescape into 3E says it isn't, and ignoring non-canon is rather easy (only slightly easier than ignoring actual canon).[/QOUTE]

WOTC does, And as the adventure was a gateway to start again with 3ed rules. It was the canon explination to explain why ther is a Great Wheel for Greyhawk and a "Tree" for Forgotten Realms. Metaphysically there is no connection between them unless you allow it to happen through the Shadow Plane optional rule. Not only do you have the DVD to call on for this, but the facts are backed up in the 3e Dieties and Demi-gods and the 3e Forgotten Realm book.

Until someone with the module kicks out the answer of when Vecna gained godhood (before or after reaching Sigil), whether or not he did infact break canon is still in the air. So, no, it's not possible from a canon standpoint.

1. Not a Planescape Product.
2. Not acknowledged by the current source of official canon (and IIRC only acknowledged by the module itself).
3. Still not even sure if the events in the module broke canon or not.

[/QOUTE]

Die, Venca Die p.122 Sidebar: "Breaking the Ban"

Thats where it explained the story. I don't want to break copywrite rules so I will sum it up for you.

Vecna cheated the metaphysical rules. Just after defeating Iuz and Taking on his power, For just a few moments he is neither God or Demi-god, and that's when he took action to enter Sigil. Just after he arrived, he finished his apothiosis.

One could ask, why did he travel to Sigil? Well, he does come out and state that he plans to remake creation in his own image. Prehaps he feels that he can do so, if he can over take the Lady of Pain.

It is also stated that Sigil cannot stand to have a Diety inside of it for long, If he does stay, Sigil and multiverse become unstable and given time everything could be destoyed.

Perhaps being at the eye of the storm protects Vecna, but that isn't stated.

Sure, you and anyone else can officialize it for your home games, but don't assume that doing so makes it canon.

The point of house games is besides the point. The module happened like it or not. It is writen very well for 2e and it really sets up the changes for 3e quite well.

The fact is "Pulling a Vecna" maybe the only way to get the Lady of Pain. She will not dirrectly intervene with him so she must not have to power to do anything against him. Should the players fail to do anything agasinst him, SHe will at the last possible moment let in 4-5 Demi-gods in to try and stop him.

 

[herald]

There was only one cosmology at the time.

If anything, it made sense out of the drop-everything-in manner which the planes were developed to begin with.

No there were several cosmologies. There is no reason to have Viking and Eygption cosmologies mixed together. That's just insulting. Have some respect for some cultures.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

No there were several cosmologies. There is no reason to have Viking and Eygption cosmologies mixed together. That's just insulting. Have some respect for some cultures.

You, dear sir, need to get a look at the 1E Deities & Demigods and 1E Manual of the Planes: There was only 1 D&D cosmology and all of what you refer to was already part of it. Planescape was built ontop of (and thereby made sense out of) what had already been done with the planes.

Your complaint is half-valid (although I'm sure gaming, not being disrespectful, was the ultimate goal); Blaming Planescape for it only shows that you don't know when the issue really started.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Here, I think, is the root of it...

WOTC does, And as the adventure was a gateway to start again with 3ed rules. It was the canon explination to explain why ther is a Great Wheel for Greyhawk and a "Tree" for Forgotten Realms. Metaphysically there is no connection between them unless you allow it to happen through the Shadow Plane optional rule. Not only do you have the DVD to call on for this, but the facts are backed up in the 3e Dieties and Demi-gods and the 3e Forgotten Realm book.

Do both of these actually state that the planes were different, or are they just different now? And, more importantly, has the cosmology changed for Planewalker?

Soth escaped Ravenloft. He's home again.

Good. While I was never a fan of either setting, it just felt like his inclusion was more a shoe-horning to attract part of the DL customer base. I mostly disected the setting for rule variants, though, so maybe it never grew on me.

not relevant. Not a apples to apples comparison. What we are talking about at adventures. They make up the Canon.

See Planewalker question above...

The point of house games is besides the point. The module happened like it or not. It is writen very well for 2e and it really sets up the changes for 3e quite well.

A 3E that doesn't include Planescape in its original form aside from Planewalker's status.

The fact is "Pulling a Vecna" maybe the only way to get the Lady of Pain. She will not dirrectly intervene with him so she must not have to power to do anything against him. Should the players fail to do anything agasinst him, SHe will at the last possible moment let in 4-5 Demi-gods in to try and stop him.

Did it? The Great Wheel as presented in MotP shows itself to be missing most of Planescape's trademark features (particularly, non-Greyhawk deities and their dominions), and the way that most of the planes "behave" is different. If the result is something that isn't Planescape (and Planescape itself continues forth unconcerned), how relevant is it as canon?

 

[herald]

You, dear sir, need to get a look at the 1E Deities & Demigods and 1E Manual of the Planes: There was only 1 D&D cosmology and all of what you refer to was already part of it. Planescape was built ontop of (and thereby made sense out of) what had already been done with the planes.

Your complaint is half-valid (although I'm sure gaming, not being disrespectful, was the ultimate goal); Blaming Planescape for it only shows that you don't know when the issue really started.

Actually it started back when Gary decided that he would have players go out and assassinate Viking dieties. But that was Oe before 1e. But the Dieties and Demi-Gods assumed that you would use that book for home brew and you plugged in what you wanted. By the time 2e had rolled around, the Dieties from Earth had been removed and we had the Dieties from the Greyhawk boxed set and the Greyhawk Adventures book. Planescape pushed all the Dieties back into one melting pot again.

So I feel that part of Planescape was objectionable. I like just about everything else. Infact I feel that the Manual of the Planes makes the situation much more interesting. By using the optional rule that the only way to travel between Fearun and Oerth is the Shadow Plane gives DM's the ability to create other outposts like Sigil.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Actually it started back when Gary decided that he would have players go out and assassinate Viking dieties.

Ick.

But that was Oe before 1e. But the Dieties and Demi-Gods assumed that you would use that book for home brew and you plugged in what you wanted. By the time 2e had rolled around, the Dieties from Earth had been removed and we had the Dieties from the Greyhawk boxed set and the Greyhawk Adventures book.

And, of course, Dragonlace Adventures and Forgotten Realms adventures... Of course, that already set the tone for "they're all there".

Planescape pushed all the Dieties back into one melting pot again.

Perhaps... I never got the 2E Legends & Lore. Did that predate Planescape?

Also, the Outer Planes Monstrous Appendix included criters that possessed specific "flavors", many of which could be attributed to an Earth culture.

So I feel that part of Planescape was objectionable. I like just about everything else. Infact I feel that the Manual of the Planes makes the situation much more interesting.

To a degree, I'd agree. At least, I didn't find it objectionable so much as kinda wonky. Never said it wasn't there, but pretty much stuck to locations made on my own (or locations not specifically tied to something else historically or mythologically).

(Honestly, this was my main problem with Ravenloft... A few too many over-used ideas.)

By using the optional rule that the only way to travel between Fearun and Oerth is the Shadow Plane gives DM's the ability to create other outposts like Sigil.

That I'd like to see... (Especially since I use the Plane of Shadow as "the" way to get around...)

 

[herald]

Here, I think, is the root of it...

Do both of these actually state that the planes were different, or are they just different now? And, more importantly, has the cosmology changed for Planewalker?

WOTC has infatically stated that the Cosmologies has been, and forever seperated. this news came out before the release of the Forgotten Realms Hardback for 3e. So indeed there has been a divorce of the game worlds. The Gods, Demons and Devils that share names are not one and the same. The are differant.

Did it? The Great Wheel as presented in MotP shows itself to be missing most of Planescape's trademark features (particularly, non-Greyhawk deities and their dominions), and the way that most of the planes "behave" is different. If the result is something that isn't Planescape (and Planescape itself continues forth unconcerned), how relevant is it as canon?

Canon on the local level is not very important. You game will run however you expect it to. But adventures written with canon in mind affect products that come out in the future. There is a book comming out called a Players guide to the Planes, and while it doesn't give great detail on Sigil, it does mention it. I'm not sure if it came out here or on the WOTC boards or not, but that information was leaked out by the writers.

I expect that more material will come out in the future that will involve more of the Planescape Game setting, but only after they feel that they can more fully explore the setting in the fashion that they are doing now. (Single hardbacks and the like.)

 

[herald]

Ick.

And, of course, Dragonlace Adventures and Forgotten Realms adventures... Of course, that already set the tone for "they're all there".

Ah, but here is the rub, Dragonlance never fit into the Great Wheel. For that matter the highst level you could get to was 18th level.

As I remember, there was just three planes. (I could be wrong about that.)

You can thank Tracy Hickman for that. He put his foot down and got his way. To this day, I haven't seen anything in Planescape that pulls from Dragonlance.