• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Paladin ... Divine Smite is a Spell now

Chaosmancer

Legend
I think I mentioned this a few pages ago, but my preference would be to use the 2014 version of the smite spells, including changing divine smite to a spell, but lose concentration for them.

The typical use case in this scenario would be a paladin casts a smite spell using a Bonus Action at the beginning of his turn, then uses the Attack action, triggering the smite damage on a hit simultaneously. On a miss, the spell simply stays active until the paladin hits or a minute is up.

The only catch would be not having different smite spells stack, which is probably why they are concentration spells in the 2014 version. But this could be addressed by something in the wording of the spells, like "you can only have one smite spell active at a time."

I personally don't think the timing isssue is that big of a deal. Yes, we typically imagine bonus actions as separate actions, but we don't have to. The timing could well be simply that the divine smite spell digs in and takes longer to withdraw from, not giving you the normal amount of time you would have for a bonus action on your turn.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
I am working through the playtest document working out the implications of things to inform my view and 2 things struck me about Paladin's Smites. The smite spells are always prepared and you get one free casting of each as they come online with out using a slot.
This means that the ones beside Divine Smite are likely to see use.
So reading Shining Smite as an example, This one has a Casting Time of a Bonus Action, cast immediately after hitting a creature and is a concentration, with a duration of up to 1 minute. It does 2d6 Radiant damage.
So my question is, if this is the first attack of the round, and the paladin has the extra attack feature and hits again does this go off again? Or is the concentration only to maintain the secondary effect (The shining light).
 

Nadan

Explorer
I am working through the playtest document working out the implications of things to inform my view and 2 things struck me about Paladin's Smites. The smite spells are always prepared and you get one free casting of each as they come online with out using a slot.
This means that the ones beside Divine Smite are likely to see use.
So reading Shining Smite as an example, This one has a Casting Time of a Bonus Action, cast immediately after hitting a creature and is a concentration, with a duration of up to 1 minute. It does 2d6 Radiant damage.
So my question is, if this is the first attack of the round, and the paladin has the extra attack feature and hits again does this go off again? Or is the concentration only to maintain the secondary effect (The shining light).
The later one, it is a anti-invisible spell that guarantee to work every time you cast it.
 

Sir Brennen

Legend
I am working through the playtest document working out the implications of things to inform my view and 2 things struck me about Paladin's Smites. The smite spells are always prepared and you get one free casting of each as they come online with out using a slot.
This means that the ones beside Divine Smite are likely to see use.
So reading Shining Smite as an example, This one has a Casting Time of a Bonus Action, cast immediately after hitting a creature and is a concentration, with a duration of up to 1 minute. It does 2d6 Radiant damage.
So my question is, if this is the first attack of the round, and the paladin has the extra attack feature and hits again does this go off again? Or is the concentration only to maintain the secondary effect (The shining light).
Having the 2d6 apply for every hit for the duration would make it way more powerful than just a second level spell. So, the concentration is just for the shining aspect that grants Advantage to everyone attacking the target. The "Until the spell ends" part of the description doesn't mention the damage.
 



Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Okay, how is pushed 10 ft and knocked prone worth
1) Reduced Damage
2) Bonus action cost
3) 300 ft of sound that alerts everyone
4) Being vulnerable to all those anti-spell abilities.

For the same spell slot.
The damage reduction is minimal. The bonus action cost is also minimal. The 300 foot sound can be intimidating. I mean a smite that loud could cause a mass surrender all by itself. And number 4 isn't much of a vulnerability since you have normal smites for when you are fighting spellcasters who can use them. You get to choose when to use the spell and when to use normal smite. It's only a full liability if you can ONLY cast spells, because then you have no choice but to be vulnerable to all of those anti-spell abilities.
Why not? It isn't like the fiction is they swing, connect, cut through, re-establish their guard, then chant the spell to burst the wound with divine energy.
Take out the bolded and that's exactly what happens. They swing, they connect, they do damage and then they take an action(bonus actions are still actions) to cast a spell after the hit and damage to add to the damage of the original swing as it hits.
It seems incredibly reasonable to me that the caster can tell whether or not the spell was triggered by the hit.
Sure. AFTER it's too late to counter. BEFORE it's too late to counter, the caster won't know whether it's smite, misty step or divine word that is being used as the bonus action.
To cast divine word, you need to be 13th level.
And?
By 13th level, the paladin has Radiant Strikes, so their weapon is likely glowing or glimmering with divine energy, where a cleric's would not be. Additionally, they have three different aura effects. Allies always know where the Paladin's aura is, and if they are in it, it stands to reason there is a noticeable effect, especially to a trained spellcaster who is facing off against a 13th level party.
You've completely missed the point. The caster doesn't know whether it's a paladin, cleric or religious fighter that's swinging the sword. Nor does the enemy feel the invisible paladin auras. We know that they are not visible, because in 5e it needs to be explicitly said for it to be present. It doesn't say the auras are visible, so they are not. Nor is the weapon glowing with any sort of glowing or divine energy from paladin abilities. Carrying divine power within the strikes does not mean visible. It doesn't say visible, so it isn't. Further, even if they were visible, it would more commonly be from a magic weapon than from a high level paladin ability.
The enemies you are fighting at this level are not unfamiliar with what a paladin is. Heck, it is entirely possible they know you are a paladin because they scry'd you and saw you summoning your steed, which is a paladin exclusive ability.
Maybe. And I used language to indicate that this could be the case. Operative word there is could. It would much more commonly be an encounter with someone or something you've never met before.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
The damage reduction is minimal. The bonus action cost is also minimal. The 300 foot sound can be intimidating. I mean a smite that loud could cause a mass surrender all by itself. And number 4 isn't much of a vulnerability since you have normal smites for when you are fighting spellcasters who can use them. You get to choose when to use the spell and when to use normal smite. It's only a full liability if you can ONLY cast spells, because then you have no choice but to be vulnerable to all of those anti-spell abilities.

Interesting, the bonus action cost of the ability is minimal. So changing Divine Smite to a bonus action should be equally minimal.

I like your attempt at spinning the thunder, it doesn't work, because no one is going to have a single 1st level spell cause a mass surrender, but it was funny to read.

And the point 4 is such a massive downside that the only thing you can think of is having it not be a factor. Because I asked what balanced this, and your response was the balance was achieved by having an option that did not have this negative. Nothing in the ability itself balances this, only the option to use a different ability to avoid this negative.

So from this, your ideal balance would be to have all of the smites, Divine and otherwise, be bonus actions on a hit, and they should not be spells.

Take out the bolded and that's exactly what happens. They swing, they connect, they do damage and then they take an action(bonus actions are still actions) to cast a spell after the hit and damage to add to the damage of the original swing as it hits.

If you take out the bolded part, the sword is still buried in the enemy. In which case, it's kind of obvious what they are attempting to cast. Not many misty steps are channeled through a sword.

Sure. AFTER it's too late to counter. BEFORE it's too late to counter, the caster won't know whether it's smite, misty step or divine word that is being used as the bonus action.

Self-imposed limitation. There is no reason they can't recognize it in time for the counter. After all, they would recognize shield being cast as a reaction to a weapon being swung. They know the trigger was "targeted by an attack" and that narrows it down. The wizard watching this fight can see the trigger was "hits with an attack" and can narrow down the spell that is being used.




And keep reading.

You've completely missed the point. The caster doesn't know whether it's a paladin, cleric or religious fighter that's swinging the sword. Nor does the enemy feel the invisible paladin auras. We know that they are not visible, because in 5e it needs to be explicitly said for it to be present. It doesn't say the auras are visible, so they are not. Nor is the weapon glowing with any sort of glowing or divine energy from paladin abilities. Carrying divine power within the strikes does not mean visible. It doesn't say visible, so it isn't. Further, even if they were visible, it would more commonly be from a magic weapon than from a high level paladin ability.

So the enemy can't tell a paladin from a religious fighter because you say so. Because you say there is no possible way for them to know an aura is present. Because you say that the Radiant Strikes are not visible. Because you say it can't be done.

Well, I say it can.


And, again, lets say you are right. Let's say that the mage has no clue what you are and what you are doing, just MAGIC! like a dog orienting on a squirrel, and they blast you with a 7th level counterspell because you might possibly have been trying to cast Divine Word and that scared them. Yes, you lose a 1st or 2nd level spell slot. They lost a 7th. Explain to me how this is a bad trade?
 

Clint_L

Hero
The fact that you could maybe use smite to bait a counterspell would be 100% a feature, not a flaw.

You add smite to an attack. The enemy spellcaster counterspells it, using up both their spell slot and their reaction. Everyone else in your party licks their lips in anticipation...

Some things that enemy spellcaster can no longer do:
Counterspell the polymorph/disintegrate/banishment/dominate headed their way.
Cast shield as the fighter pops action surge and the raging barbarian closes in.

But counterspelling that 9 or so extra smite damage was totally worth it!

If you are playing a paladin and an enemy counterspells your smite, you won't feel bad about it. You'll feel great - you duped that sucker, and the other players are high-fiving you!
 

Vael

Legend
Precisely, there's a lot bonuses here.

1. Prevents Smite + Spell, something the developers said they want to stop. And without adding more rules like "If you smite, you can't cast a spell" and "you can only smite once per turn", both of which were in the last Paladin playtest.
2. Makes all Smites function the same, which simplifies the game.
3. Gives interplay and counterplay
4. You get a bonus Smite now, I just noticed the free Smite per day
 

Remove ads

Top