D&D (2024) Playtest 8 Spell Discussion

[Maxperson]

and in this case neither does PHB or DMG, so it's about DM's best guess vs. players best guess and that leads to argument which would all be avoided if it simply was written:
I.E: Perception DC for spellcasting is 5. You get -1 penalty for every 10ft that you are away from caster

There is no guessing. The verbal mechanic is chanting or singing. The DM can change it, but the players cannot.

 

[Yaarel]

That is wrong. The mechanic is not V. The V represents the mechanic which is very explicitly chanting or singing.

To "chant" can be very low volume.

In reallife, I use the word "chant" to refer to a Jewish context reading from a Tora scroll and to a Sámi context of a joik (juoigat).

In both cases, the chant can be loud for an audience, or very quiet for personal meditation.

 

[mellored]

Conjure Animals, does 11 + range + situation Str saves
vs spirit Guardian 13.5 + half damage + half speed.

Seems a bit on the weak side, maybe d12? Also it should be cleared up if you can walk though them or not. Or can I block off a 10' corridor?


Conjure Celestial
52 + half damage + friendly healing + movable.

Small area but quite potent. Could possibly be tuned down a notch.


Conjure Elemental
36 + restrained.

Only works if the enemy moves, but that includes enemy who just escaped moving out of the zone. Also, there is apparently no limit to the number of attacks per turn. An enemy who walks past can get attacked 4 times in a turn. I like the theme, but the details need another pass. Like being able to attack once when summoned.


Conjure Fey
24 + frightened

Damage scales really fast. But bonus action frightened is a decent effect.



Conjure Minor Elemental
+9 damage per attack. Scales really fast.

This seems either useless for the majority of wizards, or OP for certain builds. Either way isn't good.


Conjure Woodland beings
17.5 zone

Same damage as spirit guardians. Which is good.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The conjure minor elemental will produce a lot of damage when combine with scorching ray. If a caster manage to combo with Eldritch blast it can also be mad.
Conjure minor elemental can boost scorching ray by 6d8. At base level.
But any upcast be be silly.
12d8 per scorching ray if CME is upcast at level 5
18d8 per scorching ray if CME is upcast at level 6.
and that not even use the upcast of scorching ray if more boost is needed.

Eldritch Blast would be a crazy combo, agreed. Which means it's just as well it's not and should never be a warlock spell. And Eldritch Blast should scale with warlock level not character level. (And this, people, is why just having a single list for arcane casters shreds design space).

Meanwhile with Scorching Ray you take two actions and cast two spells. And have to be within 15ft of your foe - not somewhere your average wizard wants to be in the slightest. It's more or less a "from ambush" combination. That said the scaling is overtuned.

It's worth noting that there is not one single spell in the new playtest packet that is on the sorcerer list. Quickening Conjure Minor Elemental would probably be broken, of course. But the old joke about it being "Wizards of the Coast not Sorcerers of the Coast" proves its worth once again.

 

[mellored]

It's worth noting that there is not one single spell in the new playtest packet that is on the sorcerer list.

Did the sorcerer have any conjure or heal spells before?

Because that's the only 2 categories that where in this packet. Both of which are heavily linked to the Druid.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Conjure Minor Elemental
+9 damage per attack. Scales really fast.
This seems either useless for the majority of wizards, or OP for certain builds. Either way isn't good.

Yeah, there's already a lot of posts about upcasting it with multiple attacks (Eldritch Blast, shapechange into something with claw/claw/bite, plus one level of Monk) and it gets absolutely ridiculous. A better Spirit Shroud is not what I expect when I hear someone's about to conjure small elementals.

 

[Ashrym]

I don't care one whit what you do to alter bards. If you want to put on a cape and paint an S on your chest, flying around and saving kids, go for it.

I never said anything about altering bards. It's unnecessary to do so.

A little strawman, a little appeal to absurdity... Colorful but not really a counter point to what I said.

I'm tempted to do that in game now though.

I'm talking about the default bard. The default design of the bard really doesn't match up to anything in the real world beyond the name bard and having an instrument.

The "default bard" resembles mythological bards far better now. It sounds like you aren't familiar with those myths.

Real world bards don't run around casting 1st to 9th level spells for one thing. They don't have magical songs of sort D&D bards have. They don't have proficiency or a bonus at everything. They didn't inspire the way D&D bards do.

No real world any class runs around casting 1st to 9th level anything because that's a game mechanic and the argument would apply to other spell casters. Bards in myths do more magic than we often see from a typical wizard or sorcerer in myths.

Most magic like that comes from singing, chanting, and rhymes. Bards can cast spells the exact same way as other spell casters by using components or a pouch without using a musical instrument, or they can use a musical instrument as a focus. This aligns with shamanistic traits or something like my Alice Cooper in comics example relying on the instrument.

The bonus to "everything" is a manifestation of the jack-of-all-trades concept. The expectations on historical bards was general skills as needed. We can also see this in other cultural equivalents such as the kahuna.

Inspiration comes from tales of bards inspiring warriors with music during the Roman invasion. Bards were expected to be capable of eliciting many emotions through stories or songs.

Using music and songs to keep morale up and inspire soldiers has been a thing the entire time. In modern times it's seen to instill a sense of patriotism or support protests as examples.

They simply don't match up to D&D bards, so to say here that bards would or wouldn't have X is absurd. They have what they have because TSR/WotC designed them that way and it's appropriate for them to have those abilities even if you don't like them.

Bards have what they have because bards were originally based on bards, skalds, fili, and jongleurs.

They had magic, inspiration, knowledge, skills, and combat ability. They still have all those options within the game mechanics. 5e is one of the best representations of those traits.

Whether I like or dislike the class is irrelevant here. What's going on is you seem to have a preconception to which you cannot relate the mechanics when the mechanics are based on mythology and history.

What I am saying has nothing to do with how you choose to roleplay a bard. I'm only talking the mechanics of the D&D bard matched up to real world bards. Or rather the lack of a match up.

That's a you thing. The mechanics do align with historical and mythological bards such as Amergin, Merlin, or Taliesin. It's not an issue with the mechanics if you're not familiar with how those mechanics relate to that folklore.

 

[Maxperson]

To "chant" can be very low volume.

Not by common usage or the definition of the term.

In reallife, I use the word "chant" to refer to a Jewish context reading from a Tora scroll and to a Sámi context of a joik (juoigat).

You ever go to temple and listen to a Rabbi chant the Torah? It's loud. They don't whisper it.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I wish they'd given this Conjure X treatment to Animate Objects as well (and upcasted Animate Dead, I guess).

 

[Yaarel]

You ever go to temple and listen to a Rabbi chant the Torah? It's loud. They don't whisper it.

When the cantor chants a section for a congregation to hear, of course, it is loud.

When the cantor is preparing, the chant is quiet.

Also, when texts from the Tora, like Birkat Kohanim, and other sacred texts, like Ana B Koakh, are for personal meditation, the chanting is quiet.