Please help me build a knowledge-based character

[zyzzyr]

Hello,

Hmm, I am very much liking the idea of exchanging turning for bardic knowledge. I think it would fit the character, the god, the religion ... everything, better.

The reason that I ask about the bard is that I am wondering if perhaps I missed something in the bard, or if there is some way to pull off being a bard, with this concept, that I have missed.

As to being a level 5 Expert ... well, I'd have to look at the class - I'm not up to date on what they get. I would guess, though, that I could probably pull a similar stunt by playing a rogue, but substitute sneak attack for bardic knowledge + something, or similar.

Please keep the ideas coming - this is really quite interesting and helpful!

zyzzyr

 

[Drawmack]

I have a homebrew class with this exact thing in mind, though it was designed specifically with city adventuring in mind and it is not a martial class at all.

Email me (tomender@ptd.net) and I'll send you the word doc of it tonight.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

The cleric/rogue idea sounds really good, especially if you could substitute bardic knowledge for undead turning as suggested above (all my best ideas seem to get here before me ), but you may want to see if you can trade in your heavy armor proficiency for scribe scroll, as well. Fits the character, and it's a change a number of people here have already suggested for the cleric.

 

[Celebrim]

Canis: Whoa there. Exchanging turn undead for bardic knowledge is one thing. I'm not about to let anyone trade armor proficiencies for another general feat. Too many classes have armor proficiencies as class features. They are too easy to get back.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

You could just put the character off until July and hope the Revised bard doesn't suck.

But seriously, the character you want to play is a bard, so play a bard. Rather than trying to get your DM to switch major class features (I would never give a cleric Bardic Knowlege no matter what they gave up - it's BARDIC knowlege for the love of dog!) Show him this thread and the rumors for 3.5 and say "what can we do to make The Bard the best choice for playing a bard?" Going up to 6 skill points should be a gimme, and just get a wand of mage armor (it isn't level dependant, so it would be pretty cheap).

But thats just me...

I never played any of the previous D&D editions seriously, so I can't explain my protective attitude towards the bard. I guess its just the second most 'me' class, but is so obviously screwed...

Kahuna Burger

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Canis: Whoa there. Exchanging turn undead for bardic knowledge is one thing. I'm not about to let anyone trade armor proficiencies for another general feat. Too many classes have armor proficiencies as class features. They are too easy to get back.

For someone who actually wants to do so, yes. But I don't see zyzzyr suddenly throwing a level of fighter into this character. I don't suppose you'd consider trading a combination of weapon and armor proficiencies that this character would NEVER use for scribe scroll, which perfectly fits the character? After all, his background is that of a scholar who "dislikes combat" and "would instead focus his skills and powers on helping others become more powerful." Is a person who is trying to build a character with a series of the least powerful and combat-effective abilities the type to suddenly make a hard shift into powergamer?

Originally posted by Kahuna Burger
...(I would never give a cleric Bardic Knowlege no matter what they gave up - it's BARDIC knowlege for the love of dog!)...

And the exact same mechanic is used for Loremasters. AND it's a perfect simulation of how real world scholars remember information. I make a roll, modified by my years in the field (a.k.a. my class level). If it's successful, I remember the fact. If I'm in my office, I get to re-roll to see if I can remember where I put the paper or book that had the fact in question. Having Endnote on your computer gives you a +20 on the 2nd roll, provided you pass your Computer Use check, which, of course, is modified heavily by environmental factors ranging from server maintenance to ambient solar radiation.

 

[Jolly Giant]

Sounds like you're looking for something very much like the character I'm currently playing Zyzzyr!
He's a greyelf rogue3/fighter2/diviner4, heading for the arcane trickster class. Yeah, I know, it doesn't sound much like what you're looking for yet, but hear me out...
His highest stats are in INT, CHA and WIS, in that order. His rogue skills have primarily been put into skills like Gather Info, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Bluff, Decipher Script and Use Magic Device. Diviner skillpoints were logically spent largely on knowledge skills. His spell selection is (obviously!) heavy with divination spells. In other words, what information he can't smooth-talk himself to, he'll get with magic. Yoy could of course loose the fighter-levels. I just threw them in, cause I had reasonably good scores on all six abilities and none truely outstanding, and liked the idea of a character who could do a little of everything. (I even considered playing a bard, but they're just to ******!)
As it turned out, I ended up with a character that functioned much better than I would have thought at first! He can actually hold his own in just about any situation. I truely expected him to end up very much like the dreaded bard, second best at everything, but his versatility has more or less made him our groups leader; the one everyone looks to in a tricky situation.
He can talk circles around just about everybody, he has extremely useful spells our 'pure' wizard never thought of learning and he can even dish out damage just as well as the fighter-types in our gang. Sneak attacks with a touch-spells is sooo sweet! (Dodge and Mobility let's him get in flanking position ok!) The 3 very different classes actually turned out to compliment each other very nicely, much better than I expected when I first started making the character. High INT and rogue levels of course means he's got heaps of skill points. He's got a decent attack bonus and a couple of extra feats from the fighter levels (Imp. Initiative and Weapon Finesse: Touch Attacks). And of course he's got his spells. Even a lowly Ray of Frost can deal decent damage when used to sneak attack! With synergy bonuses from both Spellcraft and Decipher Script to Use Magic Device, he can quite easily use divine scrolls too!
As a bonus, he doesn't even have a 'weak save'! Each of the 3 classes have different good saves, so he's now got 3 very decent saves, thank you very much!

And I thought he would end up as the party's 'weak link' with 3 different classes...

 

[zyzzyr]

Hello,

Thanks for the continued discussion.

Jolly Giant - Your character does sound interesting. I did think of going that way, but I don't want this character to go the way of a fighter at all - I do not want him to be combat oriented at all. I can definitely see how that adds to your character though - 2d10 hp, +2 or 3 to fort saves, and 2 combat oriented feats! It definitely balances out the combat weaknesses of the bard class.

I'm not really keen on having the character know of sneak attack either - I really want him to be a support character.

Celebrim: you're right that heavy armor proficiency is too easy to get back, but the point of this character, as Canis astutely points out, is that he wouldn't ever take a class that grants him this benefit anyhow. He shies away from combat.

Canis - you're right, I was more thinking along the lines of Loremaster ability, really (themewise), than Bardic knowledge. He prefers the obscure lore that most people ignore than the overriding geopolitical factors.

And The Cleric/rogue does sound good, but that implies a relationship with a larger body (the church), when I wanted this guy to be more independent.

I am worried about going rogue/div though, because my spells take a major hit going that road - and I don't care to have evasion, sneak attack, or uncanny dodge. These things don't interest him.

 

[Tyberious Funk]

I have a character that began very much like this. He's an abjurer/loremaster. The protection magic of the abjurer is nice and the loremaster fitted the character concept nicely too. He also has a swag of divination spells too.

Yes, you might want Bardic knowledge then you can't always get what you want Anyway, I found that with a relatively high INT I get enough skillpoints to really plunge into all the Knowledge skills. If you pick human you'll obviously get even more. It's amazing what interesting skills you can pick up if you are happy to foresake simple stuff like Spot and Listen. With the all the basic knowledge skills covered, you'll really not miss the bardic knowledge.

At 5th level, with, say an 18 INT and class of Wizard and race of human, you should have 60 skill points. You could max 6 knowledge skills at 8 ranks and still have 12 skill points left over for things like Concentration and Scry. 8 ranks, plus an INT bonus of +4 is likely to easily make you the most knowledgable character in your party.

Since you are going to be non-combative, you'll also have the freedom to spend your feats on some funky stuff that might also boost things (eg, Skill Focus, Cosmopolitan) The Core rulebooks really don't help non-combative types of characters much, but some of the supplements are quite a bit more helpful (though I can't think of anything specific off the top of my head).

Is your DM allowing you to purchase some magic items? Obviously, these can also help greatly too.

 

[Ace]

An easy solurion is to make a smart rogue and give him the educated feat.

If you have an Int of 14+ thats 10 skill points per level and thats a lot of Knowledge skills

Another option is to ask the GM to let you custom a Bard, Keep the Lore ability and spells with two little tweaks

For losing Bardic Music he gets 2 extra skill points a level and acess to all divination spells. That would be balanced I think