Podcast #280: AI Art Controversy in RPGs...Again

GothmogIV · Dec 24, 2023

I enjoyed this pod, as I do all of them. I think the WotC thing is a reflection of how little trust there is for Big Dragon by the larger community. I'm glad they didn't use AI art (and that the actual artist hasn't been penalized for what amounts to an unfair accusation). With that said...would it surprise anyone if WotC/Hasboro did something underhanded to save a few bucks?

I have not participated in an online forum for more than 15 years. I have been very happy to discover this community, and I wish all who hang out here a very merry Christmas, and a peaceful and healthy new year. Be well, all.

Abstruse · Dec 24, 2023

GothmogIV said:
I enjoyed this pod, as I do all of them. I think the WotC thing is a reflection of how little trust there is for Big Dragon by the larger community. I'm glad they didn't use AI art (and that the actual artist hasn't been penalized for what amounts to an unfair accusation). With that said...would it surprise anyone if WotC/Hasboro did something underhanded to save a few bucks?

While true and true of all corporations, there's also a risk assessment involved. I'm sure Wizards of the Coast's upper management would love nothing more than to fire their entire art department and replace them with a nephew typing in prompts and a half dozen recent art school grads getting paid peanuts work-for-hire to "touch up" the algorithmically generated results. But they also know that would be the end of the company due to customer backlash.

And I think the new executives realized precisely how bad that backlash could get when the OGL controversy early in the year. It seemed like they assumed there'd be some grumbling for a week or two then eventually things would die down and they could just move forward. It's just a vocal minority of fans, after all. Except even if it was a vocal minority of fans, tabletop gaming is very community-focused and the "vocal minority" hold actual influence within that community. This has always been the case but far moreso today with social media, podcasts, YouTube, TikTok, Twitch, etc. It's a very social experience, after all, and while a majority of the player base just buys their books and plays their game without diving into all the streamers and videos and forums because gaming is just a thing they do rather than a serious hobby, there's likely going to be at least one person in their group who is the type to read all the news and know all the current discourse. And when it's the entire community being that loud about a single issue, it tends to spread faster. Getting to the point that the OGL story was showing up in Variety and Hollywood Reporter tied to what should have been fluff promotional news pieces about Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves.

It seems like that worked as a wake-up call to the ex-Amazon ex-Microsoft execs who just took over management of Wizards that they can't do whatever they like in tabletop. So if they did ever decide to replace the art department with entirely algorithmically generated art, the fanbase would revolt once again and they'd lose their entire customer base. So whether they actually believe what they're saying with their line about artists' and writers' creativity being the backbone, they're for sure going to at least act like it's true because it directly affects their bottom line.

Clint_L · Dec 24, 2023

GothmogIV said:
I enjoyed this pod, as I do all of them. I think the WotC thing is a reflection of how little trust there is for Big Dragon by the larger community. I'm glad they didn't use AI art (and that the actual artist hasn't been penalized for what amounts to an unfair accusation). With that said...would it surprise anyone if WotC/Hasboro did something underhanded to save a few bucks?

Thus far, the issue hasn't been WotC being underhanded, it's been the potential for artists being underhanded and selling work that has been partially produced using AI tools. Except I don't really like using the term "underhanded" at all, in this situation.

WotC is now very clear on their policies, but generative AI is a new thing and a lot of artists are experimenting with ways to combine it with their own work. That's what happened with the art on Bigby's, and I feel for that artist. This wasn't just someone typing in a prompt, it was someone enhancing their own original work using AI tools that quite likely didn't seem fundamentally different from other digital tools that artists use routinely.

The issue is now complicated because we are becoming very moralistic about the words "AI art." There may be good reasons for this, and I don't really want to get back into that argument, but the problem is that for many folks it's a black and white situation while for others it is much more nuanced. So there are currently a lot of artists experimenting with the new tech because of course they are, and it is not always clear what should count as original work and what should not.

TheSword · Dec 24, 2023

Abstruse said:
I'm sure Wizards of the Coast's upper management would love nothing more than to fire their entire art department and replace them with a nephew typing in prompts and a half dozen recent art school grads getting paid peanuts work-for-hire to "touch up" the algorithmically generated results. But they also know that would be the end of the company due to customer backlash.

Wizards have been publishing art as part of their products for a long long time. I’m not sure what you have seen that makes you think they would want to get rid of artists any more or less than any other organisation. I would think a great deal less considering the fame many fantasy artists have gained within the hobby and how that is in itself marketing for products.

I think we can be cautious but it’s worth actively resisting the urge to spread paranoia and cynicism. It’s part of what has generated the whole AI witch hunt.

Abstruse · Dec 25, 2023

TheSword said:
Wizards have been publishing art as part of their products for a long long time. I’m not sure what you have seen that makes you think they would want to get rid of artists any more or less than any other organisation.

I bolded for emphasis, but it's precisely that. I'd even say they likely would want to do so slightly less than other companies because of how much value comes from their art library, but it's still an expense that could theoretically be lowered or cut entirely. And that's what all these executives are seeing with algorithmic generation.

Also, the executives in charge of Wizard of the Coast at large and of the Dungeons & Dragons have been in their positions for less than two years (Cynthia Williams was hired in February 2022 and Dan Rawson in October 2022). Before that, they both came from Amazon and then Microsoft (Williams at Xbox and Rawson at Microsoft Dynamics 365). Neither had tabletop experience at all before this job, so wouldn't understand how important art is. And, if they hadn't gotten enough "I told you so"s after the OGL from the people in the company who do have experience and know what the customer base expects and will react, it's highly likely they would have experimented more with generative algorithms.

That's just my opinion, I have no hard evidence or even rumors of discussions to back it up, just speculation informed by the above information.

pete284 · Dec 25, 2023

I agree about the negative videos with the presenter having a surprised expression....fed up of these videos and I have unsubscribed to many of the content creators. Ironically most of them got their fame and subscribers on the back of 5e content and now they spend all their effort having a go at 5e or WOTC when they should be putting their time and effort publicising small Indie creators.

Abstruse · Dec 25, 2023

pete284 said:
I agree about the negative videos with the presenter having a surprised expression....fed up of these videos and I have unsubscribed to many of the content creators. Ironically most of them got their fame and subscribers on the back of 5e content and now they spend all their effort having a go at 5e or WOTC when they should be putting their time and effort publicising small Indie creators.

It's the nature of YouTube's algorithm. Basically, it's the visual equivalent of clickbait. If you have a story with any nuance to it at all, tak the most extreme reading possible, throw it in the thumbnail with the host looking shocked pointing at a picture with something random circled in red.

Two recent examples:

Hasbro lays off 1100 employees, some of whom work on D&D. Big enough story on its own, wouldn't you say? Nope, got to make the title "D&D Owner Lays Off 1100 Employees!!" with the Wizards of the Coast logo in the thumbnail and text saying "Going Bankrupt??" Which is only true in the most rules lawyer "Well technically" way possible because it was Hasbro doing the layoffs not Wizards of the Coast, and they're very obviously not going bankrupt Hasbro's just not as profitable as they wanted to be so laid off people to goose end-of-year numbers and pay out bigger dividends. Like every other company in America does when their profit margins didn't grow enough.

And then there was the announcement from WotC about the artwork where they used the phrase "final D&D products" to mean the final product - as in the completed product with all the game design and writing and editing and artwork and layout done that's ready to sell as a PDF or send off to be printed. But several people intentionally misinterpreted this as no more products for D&D will be made after this which...why would anyone think that? They just announced an entire line-up for 2024, there's no way they're not going to keep printing new books especially when they're about to do a soft relaunch of the core rulebooks. The only possible way you could think that is if you were wanting to post a video thumbnail that says "The End of Dungeons & Dragons Confirmed??" (again with the question marks because they're not SAYING anything (Because that would be actionable in court), they're just asking questions).

It's incredibly frustrating as a journalist because "Rumors travel halfway around the world before the truth has got its boots on" combined with people judging me and MY credibility based off debunking the rumors and intentional misinterpretation and misframing of the fact because the clickbait is confirming their bias against WotC (or Paizo or whatever company they're angry at, but usually one of those two) and I'm saying "If you want to hate this company there are plenty of legitimate reasons, you don't need to go making up fake ones."

PJ Coffey · Dec 26, 2023

I'm just annoyed that didn't point out the job losses sooner. They flagged up they were going to do it in Oct 22.

Still another 1000 jobs to go.

GothmogIV · Jan 6, 2024

Are you kindly English people going to put the 10-foot pole skit out as a separate episode on iTunes. I found it quite jocular, and wish to share it with a friend.

Podcast #280: AI Art Controversy in RPGs...Again

#280: AI Art Controversy in RPGs...Again | Morrus’ Unofficial Tabletop RPG Talk

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