podcast: 4th edition combat too long

[erisred]

I agree with you Palladion, very shoddy play.

Yeah, I wondered about that. I was shaking my head while watching.

If you've been listening to the PA/PVP podcasts, compare the two. The video podcast players knew more about the rules, but they appeared to be very tactically challenged. The PA/PVP guys not only worked together better, grasping ways to build on each other's powers, but seemed to have a heck of a lot more fun. The DM in the video podcast was much more demonstrative than the other one, but he couldn't (or at least didn't seem to) get his players as excited or involved as the other guy.

Well, in the video they said it was 5pm on a Friday afternoon. Maybe the players were just tired, or something.

 

[erisred]

I've been really impressed with Chris Perkin's DMing in the Penny Arcade podcasts. I like how he can combine teaching the system while smoothing keeping everyone on track.

Same here! We can't see Perkins, but it's clear from his voice that he's not going "over the top" like Noonan did in the video.

Let me ask something. Shouldn't that rogue have run rather than trying to hit the Mind Flayer the *second* time? Rogues are strikers, but my take was that they do their best work using their movement. Instead, he tried to duke it out toe to toe and got himself immobilized. Then the defender types were way too slow to get forward and form any sort of wall.

You know thinking about it, I'm struck that the players in the video didn't talk about their moves with each other so they weren't coordinating anything...the bad rolls didn't help, but I just didn't see any sort of teamwork going on.

OTOH, the PV/PVP guys...even the one who's never played *any* D&D before...are constantly doing talking among themselves, "if I do this, then you do that", "no wait, do this", etc.

Yeah, I wish there was video of the PA/PVP game. It really sounds like those guys were having fun.

 

[JeffB]

Wow. That was awful.

I'm with KarinsDad re: non-gamer perception of this thing. Were I someone who *may* be interested in D&D , I'd say that Podcast would a be a big reason for me to check out a MMORPG or go back to my X-box.

 

[erisred]

I loved this video podcast and want more. It's about time that Wizards showed their own people playing the game.

"He's what we call a revenue stream." Made me LOL.

Well, yes, I loved that they *did* it and yes, I really do want them to do it again. OTOH, I thought there were big flaws in *this* one that they did.

For those that say "this is pretty typical" for how games go...well, not in my experience. Where was the round the table joking and asides? Where were the groans and cheers over dice rolls?

Here's what it looked like to me.

The guy playing the rogue wanted to really play, but he spent most of the session unconscious. That sort of squashed him. I think he made a bad decision early and couldn't extricate himself from it. That nobody moved in to help him sooner was a real downer.

Jennifer had a Warlock, I think. She really played it out, she stood up, she was excited, she was loud, she was nervous, she had *energy*, and she looked like she was having fun. I liked her play.

Sara, well, she *looked* bored, frustrated, or maybe like she didn't want to be there. I don't think that was really the case, though. What I think was happening was that she didn't know her character's capabilities and was trying to figure them out by reading her sheet and the books at the table and *that* was what had her frustrated. And then it's true that some players just seem very detached while they play. Afterwards, they'll tell you how much fun they had, but it's next to impossible for anyone else to tell from the way they act.

Peter, the fighter guy, seemed timid at first. And Rodney, I think he was the Wizard, appeared to do nothing for the first couple of rounds. I know that's not true, but they were too quiet, too passive...and neither could roll anything in double digits! Both *started* to come on towards the end, they still weren't rolling well, but it looked like they were getting into it.

You know, thinking about it, I think the problem was that this session was all wrong. This wasn't a "party", it was just 5 players thrown together, with characters they didn't know, rules they probably weren't completely clear on, and thrown directly into a pretty hard combat encounter. Some people like to be thrown into the deep end, but most people don't...they get nervous, quiet, withdrawn, can seem sullen or timid. I think that *this* may have happened here. If the players had had the opportunity to play these characters through some exploration, a skill challenge, an easy encounter or two, and get comfortable enough to start rolep laying instead of roll playing before running into the Mind Flayer and his crew I think they *all* would have played a lot better.

 

[erisred]

As it happens, I've just listened to about 15 minutes of a recording of a session I ran the day before yesterday (audio only).

Man, did we sound like inarticulate dorks.

Yeah, but did you sound like excited, inarticulate dorks, who were having fun?

 

[Contents May Vary]

You know, thinking about it, I think the problem was that this session was all wrong. This wasn't a "party", it was just 5 players thrown together, with characters they didn't know, rules they probably weren't completely clear on, and thrown directly into a pretty hard combat encounter.

Yeah, that's a good point.

 

[Jhaelen]

I'm with KarinsDad re: non-gamer perception of this thing. Were I someone who *may* be interested in D&D , I'd say that Podcast would a be a big reason for me to check out a MMORPG or go back to my X-box.

Well, I haven't watched the podcast (don't have a player for that file format) but it can hardly be worse than watching someone play an MMORPG. Seriously, that is utterly and extremely boring AND the players always look like they're totally crazy.

I remember a blog where a WOW player's wife called it 'the running game' because every time she watched, her husband seemed to be doing nothing but running from one place to another.

 

[JeffB]

Well, I haven't watched the podcast (don't have a player for that file format) but it can hardly be worse than watching someone play an MMORPG..

But you don't watch a podcast of someone playing a MMORPG as a marketing tool. You show them a screenshot of someone playing the game/demo or they get to access a trial version or whatever so the potential customer can see what the game is like.

For D&D you would have to show 4+ geeks sitting around a table throwing dice -yelling "I cast FIREBALL" and that WOTC podcast was a really awful version of such.



*side note* I think this is the real problem/ barrier and why Videogames kick D&D to the curb in sales and why D&D will never be all that successful like it was in it's heyday- D&D doesn't look fun at all watching it. 9 times out of 10 It looks really stupid (unlike a demo of a video game). Hearing someone geek over their character and level or powers is commonplace for many gamers but makes matters worse from a "recruitment" POV. I think it's a great game (as are RPGs in general) but yeesh..*I'm* embarrased when I hear an adult blathering on about their character or spells or whatnot- WOTC should focus it's marketing efforts elsewhere than giving us visuals. IMO..YMMV..yada yada yada

 

[Malleus Arianorum]

Peter, the fighter guy, seemed timid at first. And Rodney, I think he was the Wizard, appeared to do nothing for the first couple of rounds. I know that's not true, but they were too quiet, too passive...and neither could roll anything in double digits! Both *started* to come on towards the end, they still weren't rolling well, but it looked like they were getting into it.

I gotta say I realy liked Rodney. The dice never gave him a break but midgame, when the other players were wallowing in self pity, he turned the mood around. He was waiting the whole game to bust out his multiclass warlord power and when he finaly got to use it, his enthusiasm infected the whole group.

You know, thinking about it, I think the problem was that this session was all wrong. This wasn't a "party", it was just 5 players thrown together, with characters they didn't know, rules they probably weren't completely clear on, and thrown directly into a pretty hard combat encounter. Some people like to be thrown into the deep end, but most people don't...they get nervous, quiet, withdrawn, can seem sullen or timid. I think that *this* may have happened here. If the players had had the opportunity to play these characters through some exploration, a skill challenge, an easy encounter or two, and get comfortable enough to start rolep laying instead of roll playing before running into the Mind Flayer and his crew I think they *all* would have played a lot better.

Yeah, it was an off game for alot of reasons, but still I like that Rodney was able to pull the mood back up and the GM was able to keep it there with his improv Mind Flayer comedy routine. Not a good example of tactics, rules, mobility, interesting traps, characterization, synergy, dungeon design etc... but a shining example of how a couple of upbeat people can swing the game around.

If they had a better mic on him, Rodney would be the Leeroy Jenkins of fun.

 

[sinecure]

It was a poor decision on Wizards part to release this video. I don't think it has anything to do with whether I don't like it or you don't like it. It has to do with the audience they are trying to bring into D&D. People who play computer games.

I'm willing to bet that 9/10 times if you tell someone you play an RPG, they think you mean a video game. That's what RPGs are. A type of video game. If you watch people playing a video game, it would suck as bad as this video. Unless the guy kicks ass watching another guy play is basically boring. You're just seeing stuff in the game you'd rather get to see by playing it yourself. Watching only makes sense if the game sucks, but you still want to see what the next level will be. You want to win vicariously, but don't care enough to actually do it yourself.

This video was a horrible idea because it shows D&D as a combat game that takes ten times longer than it would on a computer. Not to mention that everyone has to wait for their turn to act. It's stupid slow. Why would anyone play a combat game without a computer? Paintball? Hell yeah!! A miniatures game not on a computer? WTF? Maybe little kids who want "rules" to play with their toys. Tabletop games have been utterly demolished by computer combat games. First person shooters kick any archer's ass. No version of the rules is going to beat a computer at combat. Get over it.

Everybody on that video already already knows this. As you can see in the first 5 minutes everybody at Wizards already plays World of Warcraft anyways. "You haven't downloaded the latest patch yet?" They know their game sucks in comparison. This is like a legacy product they hope to take into the computer age. They won't. They're basically betting that a DM on a computer game will make them the next great computer game company. Who in their right mind will pay $$ every month to use that 3D game thing they previewed on Youtube? Seeing how bad Master Tools and D&D Online both tanked, they are making a huge mistake. Wizards isn't exactly a good investment at the moment.

They should be focusing on roleplaying. Remember? That thing D&D actually lets you do, but you can't do on a computer. But they've taken roleplaying out of D&D. They've made a game where roleplaying actually hurts the game if you do it. I guess they think they can compete against computer combat games head to head because they've got the secret new DM gaming model. But of course they won't. That's why they will never be bigger than the tiny pond they now suffocate.