D&D 5E Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats

[Oofta]

None of what you said is wrong. It's just the idea that rolling prevents you from 'realising a vision' that is wrong. Rolling just means you do it in a different order.

Which is exactly my point. You want to do it stats first, character second. I want to do it character (who) first then stats (what) second.

I can accept that we simply have different approaches.

 

[TwoSix]

It is a fallacy that rolling does not allow you to have the luxury of a fully-realised, well-thought-out character concept. What's different is that the random starting point gives you opportunities and ideas that you would never have had otherwise. One of the limitations of point-buy is that you only get characters you already thought of, while rolling gives you the spur to imagine something new.

I agree with what you've posted, but I do think you're missng the obvious corollary that rolling may provide inspiration when you need a concept, but it might restrict you if you've already created a concept, and simply wish to play the concept you've already created.

Ultimately, your chosen stat-generation method and your ability to play a well-defined and interesting concept are completely orthogonal to each other.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The two methods have that in common; where they differ is the order of operations: for point-buy it's concept => determine stats, for rolling it's determine stats => concept.

What's different is that the random starting point gives you opportunities and ideas that you would never have had otherwise.

Inspiration is a fickle thing, and if it's deserted you, a set of random stats just might spark something, yes.

Of course, the 'advantages' of random vs build systems can each be poached by the other, as well. You can make some random rolls to spark ideas, then use a build system to realize them. You can generate random stats, but be allowed to arrange or modify them.

Or, you could hybridize the two: randomly generate stats, but add points if you roll under the point-buy level, and, conversely, not gain ASIs until point-buy catches up if you roll over.

 

[Lanefan]

One thing Oofta and I have in common is that it takes some time to realise a character. Sometimes it takes me a week to think of a good name!

I have random letter tables (based on Scrabble) to help you there too.

So I stared at those stats for a week, trying to make the proverbial silk purse. Then, light shone from Heaven (maybe; it could have been from the fridge)

I'm guessing the fridge, or the beer within in it.

I've never done a supers game thus can't quite relate to everything you say there, but your Atlantean example is cool.

It's also reflective of expectations within the game, though. I don't usually put much deep thought into my characters - other than one or two personality hooks to make them different from other characters - until they've survived a session or two, as our games are a bit on the lethal side. The deep thought comes later, once they've become part of the game and the game world, as to where they came from and - more important - where they want to get to.

Lanefan

 

[Arial Black]

They are completely different.

One way allows me to choose stats that conform to my pre-existing character concept.

Point-buy does not allow players to choose stats that conform to their pre-existing concept, unless, and only unless, that concept adds up to exactly 27 points!

It is simply not true to say that point-buy lets you choose whatever you want and rolling doesn't!

The other forces me to change my character concept to match the randomly rolled stats.

No! Rolling doesn't force you to change your previously conceived concept; rolling has you conceive the concept after you generate the stats.

Neither is a bad way of coming up with a character, but please stop pretending that rolling lets you create the character you want.

Please stop pretending that point-buy lets players create the characters they want! I want to play a PC who starts with 18 Str. Chance of point-buy letting me play that = zero. Chance of rolling letting me play that = a fair chance. The same goes for every single concept that doesn't add up to exactly 27 points!

Please stop pretending that rolling prevents players playing the character they want! Since you create the concept after generating the ability scores, then the responsibility to create a character you want to play rests on your shoulders, not the Dice God's.

It requires you to either change what you want to match what the dice give you or not have a character concept until after the dice have shown you what you have to work with.

Yes. You say that like it's a bad thing!

It's neither objectively better or worse in that regard; just different, with different advantages and disadvantages.

I'm okay with people extolling the virtues of one method over the other, but I'm not okay with misleading statements like "Point-buy lets players have what they want, rolling never does", or variations on that misleading theme.

 

[Caliban]

Point-buy does not allow players to choose stats that conform to their pre-existing concept, unless, and only unless, that concept adds up to exactly 27 points!

You keep saying this like it means something. A "character concept" doesn't (or shouldn't) have specific numerical values assigned to it.

"My character is a strong fighter" is a concept. You then make them as strong as possible within the limits of your character creation process.

With point buy you know exactly how strong you can make them. With rolled stats, you may not be able to make them as strong as you want. Or you wait until you get the stats, and then decide you want a strong character because you rolled a high strength. Or you trash your "strong fighter" concept and make a rogue instead because you rolled a 17 Dex and only an 11 Str.

"I want an 18 strength" isn't a character concept. That's just game mechanics.

I'm okay with people extolling the virtues of one method over the other, but I'm not okay with misleading statements like "Point-buy lets players have what they want, rolling never does", or variations on that misleading theme.

Well, two points on this comment:

1) I don't particularly care if you are OK with it or not. Your opinion on the subject is almost completely irrelevant unless you are my DM.

2) I don't believe anyone has actually said "...rolling never does". That's all you. It is entirely possible to have a character concept in mind and then roll up some stats that support it. But it's a gamble.

 

[Oofta]

I'm okay with people extolling the virtues of one method over the other, but I'm not okay with misleading statements like "Point-buy lets players have what they want, rolling never does", or variations on that misleading theme.

I think Caliban said it all, but I will just reiterate.

In my example I wanted a half orc who's strong, clumsy, fairly intelligent but doesn't always think things through (low wisdom) and is friendly and sociable. Those aren't numbers, those are descriptive attributes that I convert into numbers, something which point buy allows me to do easily.

You seem to be the one obsessed with numbers defining who a character is.

Do I have a hard limit on how high my strength can be? Sure. If I roll stats and get lucky, I'm still limited to a 20. So?

On the other hand if my concept is that I'm really an alien from Krypton that can shoot laser beams from his eyes while having a 100 strength, I'm playing the wrong game.

 

[Arial Black]

I think Caliban said it all, but I will just reiterate.

In my example I wanted a half orc who's strong, clumsy, fairly intelligent but doesn't always think things through (low wisdom) and is friendly and sociable. Those aren't numbers, those are descriptive attributes that I convert into numbers, something which point buy allows me to do easily.

You seem to be the one obsessed with numbers defining who a character is.

Do I have a hard limit on how high my strength can be? Sure. If I roll stats and get lucky, I'm still limited to a 20. So?

On the other hand if my concept is that I'm really an alien from Krypton that can shoot laser beams from his eyes while having a 100 strength, I'm playing the wrong game.

Let's take your previous example: the blacksmith wizard. You wanted him to be smart enough to fulfill the role of the party wizard, so gave him Int 16 (after racial), but wanted him to have enough strength to justify his smithing background, so Str 14. So far, so good.

Then you were trying to decide whether he is sociable, OR whether he is perceptive/agile/tough. You cannot have 'what you want' if 'what you want' is all three! That concept cannot be realised through point-buy.

Which is why it's misleading to claim that point-buy lets players realise the concept that they want. Point-buy only lets you realise the pre-conceived idea if that idea adds up to exactly 27 point; a fairly small proportion of all possible PCs with stats in the 3-18 range and the concepts that match them.

It is true that one of the advantages of point-buy is that it allows you to conceive a PC ahead of time and know that it will be legal in the game. Since rolling has you conceive your PC after rolling the stats, which is objectively no better or worse then concept first, then it's not an appropriate criticism that rolling doesn't let you do what you're not supposed to do with it!

If 'rolling mean I can't use my pre-conceived PC' were a valid, objective criticism of point-buy, then 'since the DM's character creation method means that I have to generate scores before I conceive my PC' is a valid criticism of pre-conceived PCs. If rolling for stats is part of the game, then conceiving your PC after rolling is not a bug, it's a feature. It's how the game is played and how it has always been played.

Point-buy is a comparatively recent thing, compared to rolling your stats. It has its own advantages and disadvantages over rolling. It's advantage of pre-conception is opposed by its disadvantage of those concepts being limited to exactly 27 points, instead of a host of new concepts, impossible for point-buy to emulate, open up nearly every single time you roll up a PC!

Let's say that you can have any meal you want....as long as it adds up to exactly 1000 calories. Sure, there are many, many meals you can have, but think of all the meals you cannot have, that you could have if instead of a calorie total you could eat whatever was in the market that day.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

So, mechanics only apply to world building when it's convenient. Interesting.

I just wanted to thank you for the mike drop moment back there. You freely admit that you die roll in order to score higher stats for your character and not "gimp" yourself by using a standard array. Thanks bud. It's good when honesty comes out.

Actually, in prior versions, and implied in some of the MM NPCs, there was a separate array for the common folk.

In addition, rolling gives you the possibility of rolling a stat higher than 15, but also rolling a total number of points than the 72 given by the array. Statistically speaking, most rolled characters will center around that 72 points.

So yes, some people roll to not "gimp" their character by having a set limit of 15 in a stat, but that doesn't meant they'll be more powerful overall.

 

[Caliban]

These "new concepts" that are being limited seem to be concepts of characters that are superhuman in multiple areas.

If that is what you want, then yeah, go for rolled stats. It is entirely possible to get characters with multiple 16's, 17's, and 18's (or even 20's), especially with a lot of the more generous rolling methods mentioned in this thread.

I still say that's not really a concept, unless your concept is "I'm super human at everything that matters". But if that's what it takes to make you happy, go for it.

But limiting those types of characters is not a "disadvantage" of point buy. It's a feature.

I think that may be the real difference - many (most?) of those who prefer rolled stats want to play heroes who are legendary from level one, characters who start off superior to almost everyone else. They are willing to take the gamble and either discard characters that don't work or just get them killed as quickly as possible so they can start a new character, hopefully with better stats. For these players, point buy is too limiting.

Point buy characters all start off at the same level - it's not your stats that differentiate the character from everyone else, it's the players system mastery and playing skills. These characters are only "superior" if the player knows how to make them that way and play them that way. For these players, rolled stats either interfere with their character building skills, or make it too easy.

In the end, neither one is inherently bad. It's just different playstyles. I dislike rolled stats, but that just my personal preference, not a value judgement.