[Points of Light] Durations, Durations, Durations!

[Viking Bastard]

I changed all conditions to Save Ends in my 4e game, but they lasted for one round minimum. Worked fine for us. I didn't make any distinction between at-will, encounter or daily in this and it didn't seem to matter, but we only had one at-will in circulation that delivered a condition and that was prone, so...

 

[keterys]

I wonder how horrible something like "stunned (save 2x ends)" or dominated (save 3x ends)" would be - if we assume there's a lot more save granting going on. It does make it a lot less about initiative and a lot more likely to last a round

 

[drothgery]

FWIW, I had a crazy notion of suggesting (save ends) effects can only be imposed by monsters; PC powers either last until the end of the target's turn or the whole encounter. Yes, that's a bit asymmetric. Yes, that means you have to remember to give boss monsters some way out of getting action-denied indefinitely. But it also means that effects that help the PCs are of fixed durations (either one round or the whole encounter), so you only have to bother with saves for effects that hurt the PCs.

 

[C4]

Changing to "Save Ends" also makes initiative order more critical, and changes the value of statuses differently for parties of different sizes. One of the features of the "End of Source's next turn" durations is that the Source itself gets to benefit from whatever condition has been imposed. With "Save Ends" the target can save before the source of the condition gets to go again - and before any of the source's allies get to go, as well, if the initiative order isn't optimal for the party.

Yes, I'm aware of this quirk. There's some incentive to delay inflicting many conditions for the CA or OA-denial, but for the most part, the main effect of a condition happens during the target's turn.

The notable exception is defense penalties, which do 99% of their shtick outside of the target's turn. My solution for things like defense penalties has so far has been to reserve them for triggered attacks; that way, I can add a "Can't be saved against until the target's next turn" proviso that minimizes additional tracking.

I'm leaving rogue-y CA-granting attacks as '...until the end of your next turn,' because only the rogue player has to remember the CA.

 

[C4]

I'll admit I'd be pretty okay with drastically changing Ready and Delay, as well.

In what way?

I wonder how horrible something like "stunned (save 2x ends)" or dominated (save 3x ends)" would be - if we assume there's a lot more save granting going on. It does make it a lot less about initiative and a lot more likely to last a round

I can see it now:

DM: Okay Bob, the evil enchanter has just dominated you. You need three successful saves to end it. Your turn!

Bob: Are you kidding me?! ...Okay, I've got a racial that grants me an extra save, and I can blow a daily for another one. Hey, Sally and Tim, can you spare me a couple more? If I can find a couple more saves, my chances are good...

Thanks for the thought, but I don't think I want to create a saving throw arms race like that.

 

[keterys]

In what way?

Haven't seen the perfect system yet, so I can't point "Like that", but I can say that I feel that Readying should be cleaned up to remove the ability to
Ready to avoid Immediates (and sometimes OAs) from a target or defender or Free action attack limits (ex: Warlord uses War Master's Assault, then AP readies a Hail of Steel)
or to minimize effects of conditions, like readying a charge for as soon as your turn ends and immobilize falls off. Or to maximize "end of target's next turn" stuff so it really last two rounds by making it trigger at the start of a target's turn. Even to potentially avoid some zone, terrain, etc "end your turn in" type stuff.

Essentially, I don't feel that Ready adds enough to the system to be worth keeping, so I'd probably just drop it.

At that point, I'd keep Delay around untouched I suspect.

I can see it now:

DM: Okay Bob, the evil enchanter has just dominated you. You need three successful saves to end it. Your turn!

Bob: Are you kidding me?! ...Okay, I've got a racial that grants me an extra save, and I can blow a daily for another one. Hey, Sally and Tim, can you spare me a couple more? If I can find a couple more saves, my chances are good...

Thanks for the thought, but I don't think I want to create a saving throw arms race like that.

There's a reason I said "how horrible" - though what you described sounds better to me than the "save ends with a -5 (or other massive) penalty" we see now, which is very swingy.

Heck, it sounds enough better that I think you've convinced me it's a better idea than I thought it was

 

[the Jester]

The 4e golden standard for durations is 'until end of next turn' for at-will and encounter powers, and (save ends) for recharge and daily powers. (There are exceptions, but that's the gist of it.)

I think this if FAR too simplistic of a view. Not all conditions are the same, and starting somewhere in the mid-paragon tier, "until EoNT" is sometimes- perhaps often- better than "Save ends".

Though it probably wouldn't have a huge effect, I don't think your proposal would improve much except for simplifying tracking- but that, in itself, is a VERY worthy goal.

 

[keterys]

Agreed. One of the biggest turn offs to 4e is the amount of fiddly tracking required. I think it'd take some serious surgery to address it optimally, but some big strides can be made to make it better.

 

[Quixoticelixir]

Agreed. One of the biggest turn offs to 4e is the amount of fiddly tracking required. I think it'd take some serious surgery to address it optimally, but some big strides can be made to make it better.

I've thought about this, too.

How would you change the tracking of durations in 4e? I mean, to improve it?

 

[C4]

Haven't seen the perfect system yet, so I can't point "Like that", but I can say that I feel that Readying should be cleaned up to remove the ability to
Ready to avoid Immediates (and sometimes OAs) from a target or defender or Free action attack limits (ex: Warlord uses War Master's Assault, then AP readies a Hail of Steel)
or to minimize effects of conditions, like readying a charge for as soon as your turn ends and immobilize falls off. Or to maximize "end of target's next turn" stuff so it really last two rounds by making it trigger at the start of a target's turn. Even to potentially avoid some zone, terrain, etc "end your turn in" type stuff.

My players don't ready actions often, so I haven't encountered this quirk to be honest. It sounds very...irritating.

There's a reason I said "how horrible" - though what you described sounds better to me than the "save ends with a -5 (or other massive) penalty" we see now, which is very swingy.

Note to self...add penalty typing!