Poison DCs (Revision Oct-8-2006)

[LiquidBlue]

Preamble:
The SRD includes rules for using poisons and market prices. However, the SRD does not include Craft DCs for the manufacture of these poisons. Furthermore the SRD mentions that poisons are generally illegal, thus it seems to me that the average, uninformed character would not know or have the contacts necessary to purchase said poisons.

Additionally, many of the poisions are found in natural environments. It has been suggested that a mechanism be put in place to harvest these poisons.

Consider each of the following proposal seperately. The DCs have been simplified from my previous proposal.



Craft(poison) DCs:

If a character fails a craft poison check by more than 10 for ingested or injury poisons, or by more than 5 for contact and inhaled poisons, the character is poisoned. This effect does not take place if the character has the poison use class ability.

12: Arsenic, Id moss, Black adder venom, Small centipede poison, Bloodroot, Drow poison, Greenblood oil, Blue whinnis, Medium spider venom

15: Striped toadstool, Oil of taggit, Lich dust, Shadow essence, Large scorpion venom, Giant wasp poison

18: Nitharit, Sassone leaf residue, Malyss root paste, Dark reaver powder

21: Terinav root, Ungol dust, Purple worm poison

24: Insanity mist, Wyvern poison, Deathblade

27: Dragon bile, Burnt othur fumes

30: Black lotus extract


Contact Poison, Injested Poison, Inhaled Poison, Injury Poison
[sblock=Explanation]
I arrived at these DCs using the following method:
Save DC 10-14:0, 15-19:1, 20+:2
Dice of Damage 1-3:0, 4-6:1 7+:2
Price 0-500:0, 501-1000:1, 1001+:2
Injested, Injury:0 Contact, Inhaled:1

Add each modifier then multiple by 5 and add 15
[/sblock]



Alternative Craft skill:
A character may use the Craft(alchemy skill) with -5 modifier instead of the Craft(poison) skill if so desired.



Purchase Poison DCs:

This are the Knowledge(local) or Gather Information DCs for each of the Poisons. A generally unlawful city may have the DC modified by -5, while a more authoritarian city may have the DC modified by +5. The DC to purchase the materials to make the poison is the same as the DC to purchase the ready to use poison, but the check may be made seperately. Thus a character may not know where to purchase the poison, but knows where to purchase the materials to make it.

10 (These are not illegal, and may be readily found): Dragon bile(not prepared), Arsenic, Oil of taggit

15: Striped toadstool, Id moss, Lich dust, Black adder venom, Small centipede poison, Bloodroot, Drow poison, Greenblood oil, Blue whinnis, Medium spider venom, Shadow essence, Large scorpion venom, Giant wasp poison

20: Sassone leaf residue, Malyss root paste, Dark reaver powder

25: Nitharit, Terinav root, Ungol dust, Purple worm poison

30: Black lotus extract, Dragon bile, Insanity mist, Burnt othur fumes, Wyvern poison, Deathblade

[sblock=Explanation]
Legal poisons: DC10
0-250gp: DC15
251-500gp: DC20
501-1000gp: DC25
1001gp: DC30
[/sblock]



Recovering Poison from slain Creatures:

A character may attempt a Craft(poison) check against a DC of 15 to poison a weapon with recently slain creature's poison. Only one weapon may be so posioned. Alternatively, with the use of a poison collectors kit (55 gp, 2lbs, may be used 10 times), with a Craft(poison) check at a DC of 15, the character can collect the materials necessay to craft 1d4+1 portions of poison.



Collecting Plant Poisons:
The following poisons may be collected from the wild. This is a Survival check that is treated similarly to a craft check. Knowledge(nature) provides a +2 synergy bonus to this check. Using the Detect Plants spell provide a +10 competence bonus to this check.

15: Striped toadstool, Id moss, Oil of taggit, Bloodroot, Blue whinnis

20: Sassone leaf residue, Malyss root paste

25: Terinav root

30: Black lotus extract, Burnt othur fumes

Example, Kolim wants to make the Malyss root paste. Kolim is not currently on an adventure, so she uses her craft points to find the materials needed to make the poison. Ready to use Malyss root paste has a market price of 500 gp, so the matierals needed to make the poison cost 250 gp. To find these materials Kolim uses 25 craft points and makes a survival check at a DC of 20.

[sblock=Original Proposal]
I suppose my proposal encompases a couple of new rules - all related to poison.

-First of all, I have included DCs for finding poison. Out of an adventure, a PC can use a knowledge(local) check while in Orusus to find a poison. While within an adventure, a PC can roll either knowledge(local) or Gather Information. With the Gather Information, a DM should be aware of the consequences of a PC searching for an illegal substance, especially when multiple Gather Information checks are tried.

There are two DCs given: Ready and Raw. The Ready DC represents the difficulty of finding the poison in a ready to use form, the raw DC represents the difficulty of finding and buying the materials used to craft the poison.

I propose that Arsenic, Oil of Taggit, and unprocessed Dragon Bile not be illegal. Arsenic being used in industry, Oil of Taggit being sold as a sleep aid, and unprocessed Dragon Bile being available for arcane purposes.

-Second I have included a Craft DC. This is the DC when using the Craft(poison) skill. When using this skill, the PC must have a source for the raw materials. This may require another roll as detailed above.

-I propose that the Craft(alchemy) skill may used in place of the Craft(poison) skill but at a -5 penalty.

[SIZE=1][COLOR=Orange]Poison		Type	Initial	Secondary		Price	Craft	Ready	Raw[/COLOR]
[COLOR=Plum]Nitharit		Con DC 13	0	3d6 Con		650 gp	23	19	15[/COLOR]
Sassone leaf residue	Con DC 16	2d12 hp	1d6 Con		300 gp	20	23	20
[COLOR=Plum]Malyss root paste	Con DC 16	1 Dex	2d4 Dex		500 gp	22	23	19[/COLOR]
Terinav root	Con DC 16	1d6 Dex	2d6 Dex		750 gp	23	23	19
[COLOR=Plum]Black lotus extract	Con DC 20	3d6 Con	3d6 Con		4,500 gp	35	42	36[/COLOR]
Dragon bile	Con DC 26	3d6 Str	0		1,500 gp	27	33	10
[COLOR=Yellow]Striped toadstool	Ing DC 11	1 Wis	2d6 Wis + 1d4 Int 	180 gp	12	15	15[/COLOR]
Arsenic		Ing DC 13	1 Con	1d8 Con		120 gp	11	10	10
[COLOR=Yellow]Id moss		Ing DC 14	1d4 Int 	2d6 Int 		125 gp	11	15	15[/COLOR]
Oil of taggit	Ing DC 15	0	Uncon		90 gp	11	10	10
[COLOR=Yellow]Lich dust		Ing DC 17	2d6 Str	1d6 Str		250 gp	13	19	18[/COLOR]
Dark reaver powder	Ing DC 18	2d6 Con	1d6 Con + 1d6 Str 	300 gp	13	23	22
[COLOR=Red]Ungol dust		Inh DC 15	1 Cha	1d6 Cha + 1 Cha1 	1,000 gp	25	23	18[/COLOR]
Insanity mist	Inh DC 15	1d4 Wis 	2d6 Wis 		1,500 gp	27	27	22
[COLOR=Red]Burnt othur fumes	Inh DC 18	1 Con1 	3d6 Con 		2,100 gp	30	27	21[/COLOR]
[COLOR=Lime]Black adder venom	Inj DC 11	1d6 Con	1d6 Con		120 gp	13	16	15[/COLOR]
Small centipede poisonInj DC 11	1d2 Dex	1d2 Dex		90 gp	13	16	15
Bloodroot 		Inj DC 12	0	1d4 Con + 1d3 Wis 	100 gp	13	16	15
[COLOR=Lime]Drow poison 	Inj DC 13	Uncon	Uncon for 2d4 hours	75gp	12	16	16[/COLOR]
Greenblood oil	Inj DC 13	1 Con	1d2 Con 		100 gp	13	16	15
[COLOR=Lime]Blue whinnis	Inj DC 14	1 Con	Uncon		120 gp	13	16	15[/COLOR]
Medium spider venom	Inj DC 14	1d4 Str	1d4 Str		150 gp	13	16	15
Shadow essence	Inj DC 17	1 Str1	2d6 Str		250 gp	15	19	18
[COLOR=Lime]Wyvern poison	Inj DC 17	2d6 Con	2d6 Con		3,000 gp	25	27	22[/COLOR]
Large scorpion venom	Inj DC 18	1d6 Str	1d6 Str		200 gp	14	17	16
Giant wasp poison	Inj DC 18	1d6 Dex	1d6 Dex		210 gp	14	17	16
[COLOR=Lime]Deathblade		Inj DC 20	1d6 Con	2d6 Con		1,800 gp	23	33	29[/COLOR]
Purple worm poison	Inj DC 24	1d6 Str	2d6 Str		700 gp	18	27	25[/SIZE]

As a note:
-I based the Craft DC on the poison's market value. Contact and Inhaled poisons had +5 modifier applied to them.
-I based the Ready DC on the poison's save DC, damage, and market value.
-I based the Raw DC on the poison's Ready DC and the Craft DC.
[/sblock]

 

[Bront]

Many of these poison's aren't core either, are they?

I don't think any poison is in the SRD (which, of course means publishing a list like this could be probematic).

 

[LiquidBlue]

Actually, I took the poisons from the SRD. They are found in the section "Special Abiliities." For a better description of the poisons one must turn to the SRD, I was more concerned about the DCs I proposed.

 

[Velmont]

Actually, I took the poisons from the SRD. They are found in the section "Special Abiliities."

I confirm

 

[orsal]

A lot to think about; but one thing comes to mind now. You would allow characters to find poison by the two skills that urban investigation would suggest. But what about Knowledge (nature) to be able to find poisons in the wild? Many of these do grow naturally, after all. Some, like dragon bile, would require encountering the appropriate creature, but an outdoors-oriented character could probably hunt his own plant poisons.

 

[Velmont]

Is there any rules to extract poison from a creature, like Medium Spider Venom?

 

[LiquidBlue]

I was going to include another DC, one which represents the extraction of the appropriate poison's from the wild -- either locating the plant or extracting the poison from a slain creature. I simply decided not to because I didn't want to overload the proposal.

For animal poisons maybe it could be a flat DC to immediately poison a weapon - say DC 20. While preserving a poison would require a poison makers kit to collect the poison, then a craft check at the given DC to convert the collected poison into a usuable form.

Plants are a little trickier. Not only would the DC be dependent on environment, but it would probably require much work. I don't think it would be wise to let a PC make a check that represents a single days searching, and come away with materials that are worth hundreds of gps.

Perhaps the collection of raw plant poisons could be handled like a craft check, but using a survival check (5 ranks of knowledge(nature) would add a +2 synergy bonus, casting detect plants would add a +10 competence bonus). This way PCs could use craft points to search for plant poison materials out of adventure.

 

[IamTheTest]

I think a Survival check could also be appropriate in nature.

 

[Bront]

Actually, I took the poisons from the SRD. They are found in the section "Special Abiliities." For a better description of the poisons one must turn to the SRD, I was more concerned about the DCs I proposed.

Cool, I couldn't find them last time I looked, seemed an odd thing to be missing.

I'll review the DCs

 

[Patlin]

So you can buy a wand of Death Knell with no effort or skill, but you need Knowledge(Local) to buy poison? Why complicate the economy like this? If someone wants to buy poison, let them!

I vote NO on requiring skill checks to make purchases.

I'm not 100% comfortable with the crafting rules generally, so I'll abstain from voting one way or the other on the craft DCs.

I vote YES on using Craft(Alchemy) at -5 instead of craft(poison)... the rules should have a bunch of that sort of thing for craft skills, IMO.