*POLL* Do You Feel That Greyhawk is a Dead Campaign Officially?

[ivocaliban]

Well if Amazon.com sales are any kind of legitimate barometer...

Expedition series sales rankings on Amazon.com:

#4 Expedition to the Demonweb Pits ranked 120,975 in books
#3 Expedition to Castle Ravenloft ranked 38,912 in books
#2 Expedition to Undermountain ranked 12,924 in books
#1 Expedition to Greyhawk Ruins ranked 3,930 in books

Impressive. Also, I just clicked the link and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk has already moved up to 3,502. I bought my copy at the nearest Borders Express on Friday. I know that Borders/Waldenbooks is now partnered with (or owned by) Amazon.com, so I wonder if physical purchases register in this number as well? I would suspect not.

Of course, the other Expedtion books have been out for a while, so it's not that strange that the newest book is outstripping the others by a wide margin. It's too bad Amazon.com doesn't keep track of the highest rank a book reaches since the initial release, because that would be a more telling comparison. No matter how you turn it, however, that's still an impressive sales rank for a D&D book.

 

[ivocaliban]

IMO, Greyhawk can only benefit from a few years time out to take a breather and see where the fanbase is at that time. The biggest question in my mind is - were the Living Greyhawk participants fair weather "fans" who will now jump in mass to Living Forgotten Realms and forget about Greyhawk or did they truly have/develop a lasting appreciation for Greyhawk? Time will tell and THAT answer will say much, IMO, about GH's future viability.

I know we've been flooded with recent polls about the age of D&D fans and when people discovered and/or abandoned Greyhawk, but I wonder the average age of Greyhawk fans?

Long-standing fans of Greyhawk are the most likely to buy Greyhawk products and yet are often the harshest critics of current Greyhawk incarnations. Many of them may not be happy with any future incarnation of the setting, seeing it as a long dead (or undead) thing best remembered in its prime. Likewise, newer fans, particularly those that are only familiar with Greyhawk through what's lately been referred to as "Paizohawk", may be less likely to purchase a Greyhawk product because of it's lack of support when they came aboard. They might see Forgotten Realms or even Eberron as their default systems and Greyhawk as something they're barely familiar with...

Now, I don't mean to make too much of things like this, but having just finished re-reading Owell's 1984, there is a certain notion that Greyhawk is being phased out over generations or editions. In 3.0e Greyhawk was the default "flavor" but the setting was barely supported. By the time of 3.5e Greyhawk was far behind Forgotten Realms and by then Eberron in terms of support and even the names of spells were becoming generic versions of what were once Greyhawk spells. Now, in an age without Paizo support and with 4.0e abandoning Greyhawk altogether, it will, as the OP said, certainly be dead by Origins 2008.

My question is, if the older fan base is likely to be more critical of any future Greyhawk product and the next generation of fans (those who come aboard for the first time with 4e) don't have any (or little) concept of Greyhawk at all, who will be there to support it if it makes a return in say four or five years? Unlike Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, Greyhawk doesn't have a successful novel library to bring in fantasy readers. Greyhawk doesn't have the glitter and comic book art style of Eberron, either. Mostly Greyhawk has its fans...or does it?

All, I know is that I would support Greyhawk in the future, even if it wasn't perfect. Even if it didn't fit my concept to the letter. One of the best things about Greyhawk, in my opinion, is the ability to insert your own stories and ideas with greater ease than in Forgotten Realms, for instance. I just worry that if Greyhawk ever returned it would only be played by those of us who remember AND those of us who don't mind if it's not presented exactly the way we want it. As time goes on the number of individuals who meet both requirements is probably more likely to diminish, not increase. The old grognards will prefer their thirty year old tomes to some new blasphemy and the newcomers will stick with their 4E warforged warlord warmachines instead of going back to some old relic of their grandfathers'.

 

[jimpaladin]

I posted in another thread about the age of most Greyhawkers. I agree 5 years from now how many will be left to purchase one of the "original" settings or however they market it. I will be though I am at the upper scale of age for an RPG player as is. I try to impart to my kids the Greyhawk "feeling" so that they may carry the mantle when I am gone.

I think any sort of Greyhawk setting book would be well bought tho' we would argue about it's faults to the end of time

 

[carmachu]

My question is, if the older fan base is likely to be more critical of any future Greyhawk product and the next generation of fans (those who come aboard for the first time with 4e) don't have any (or little) concept of Greyhawk at all, who will be there to support it if it makes a return in say four or five years? Unlike Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, Greyhawk doesn't have a successful novel library to bring in fantasy readers. Greyhawk doesn't have the glitter and comic book art style of Eberron, either. Mostly Greyhawk has its fans...or does it?

It does. Expidition to the ruins of greyhawk was a great book. I pulled out some old stuff and reread it, and it was nice to see even that little support.

Then it got me pissed off at WotC for the lack of support. Shame on them.

All, I know is that I would support Greyhawk in the future, even if it wasn't perfect. Even if it didn't fit my concept to the letter. One of the best things about Greyhawk, in my opinion, is the ability to insert your own stories and ideas with greater ease than in Forgotten Realms, for instance. I just worry that if Greyhawk ever returned it would only be played by those of us who remember AND those of us who don't mind if it's not presented exactly the way we want it. As time goes on the number of individuals who meet both requirements is probably more likely to diminish, not increase. The old grognards will prefer their thirty year old tomes to some new blasphemy and the newcomers will stick with their 4E warforged warlord warmachines instead of going back to some old relic of their grandfathers'.

We'll see. I dont like what I see in 4th...so it may not be an issue....

 

[Maliki]

Official support, almost none. Lots of fans and fan created stuff, if that counts.

 

[GVDammerung]

Time will tell what by what measure?

I'm a huge Greyhawk fan, have been for decades. I played LG, wrote adventures for it, and helped run it as a triad because I felt some perverse sense of helping ensure Greyhawkisms weren't violated or forgotten.

When LG ends and LFR begins I will go there as well. I'm also a mild FR fan, and have been since the Gray boxed set, buying nearly everything that was published. I liked FR as well, for what it was. I'm heading to LFR because I've come to enjoy playing RPGA adventures in a massive Living campaign. It perfectly fits the casual gaming I am able to play because of the schedule of my life (being married, kids, home owners, employed, etc.), I don't have the luxury (it's a luxury to me) of being able game in a regular group after my last one disintegrated. My going to LFR should in no way be read as fair weather fandom. I'm going to game there because it's what there. Were LG still there, I'd be there, but it ain't, so I'm not.

If a majority of the fans of Living GH move to Living Realms and give the GH setting not another thought (out of sight, out of mind?), they will be sending a strong message to Wotc that the "Living" was ever more important than the "Greyhawk." Indeed, at the RPGA members meeting at this past Gencon, Wotc all but said this, opining that Living Realms would provide everything Living GH did, plus more, and that Wotc was confident people would love this however much they liked Living GH. Fans of Living GH who do move to Living Realms and who also give not another thought to GH are IMO fairweather fans to whom the "Living" was more important than the "Greyhawk." If there are enough of these fairweather fans, Wotc will have every business reason not to pay GH much more heed on that score at least. And Wotc does not need encouragement to ignore GH so the fairweather fan phenomenon, if it develops, will be quite damning to GH IMO.

I'm not suggesting any one is or will be a fairweather GH fan. I am saying we are going to see some number of fairweather GH fans and that the exact number will say much about GH's future viability.

 

[smerwin29]

Wow. Can I play "appeal to fear" too? How about this?

"If you don't play Living Forgotten Realms, WotC will see that the success of the Living campaign system was a fluke, and they will shut down the RPGA completely! Then there will never be any chance of seeing Greyhawk again anywhere!"

Or how about we use reason:

We don't know what plans WotC has for Greyhawk, or if they have any plans at all. There may be issues that have nothing to do with LG, the RPGA, or anything of that nature. So if you enjoyed the Living Greyhawk campaign because you liked the adventures, the system, the huge amounts of play opportunities and players in the RPGA, give the Living Forgotten Realms campaign a chance. If you don't like it, then by all means don't play, but don't not play (or play, for that matter) based on some sort of agenda that probably makes no sense anyway. If you have fun, don't go postal on your own nose and expect your face to thank you for it.

 

[Sunderstone]

I just worry that if Greyhawk ever returned it would only be played by those of us who remember AND those of us who don't mind if it's not presented exactly the way we want it. As time goes on the number of individuals who meet both requirements is probably more likely to diminish, not increase. The old grognards will prefer their thirty year old tomes to some new blasphemy and the newcomers will stick with their 4E warforged warlord warmachines instead of going back to some old relic of their grandfathers'.

Im a grognard that left for FR with the grey box and came back to GH recently, so I dont have the 30 year old tomes. I tired of the overflowing magic in FR as well as constant cannon changes with every single novel.
That said, I still love Greyhawk but the above is a pretty accurate analysis of GH fans in general (at least on these forums). Personally I like Paizohawk, and I like the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, though the older grognards might not. But I do agree that some GH diehards might find faults on any future GH resurrections.

I would love to see a new book on GH but im a tad worried that a regular FR or Eberron designer will be given the job of designing it. No offense again to folks like Wyatt, Boyd, Baker etc. so I guess I might be one that finds these faults.

 

[GSHamster]

It's not as dead as Planescape, Al-Qadim, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Birthright, etc. It's not as alive as Forgotten Realms and Eberron.

The question is: are those the only two viable options? Does a campaign setting have to have FR/Eberron levels of support and new product to be considered "alive"?

 

[Tharkun]

The question is: are those the only two viable options? Does a campaign setting have to have FR/Eberron levels of support and new product to be considered "alive"?

I'd say no it doesn't but it should have at least a single product every two years maybe every three. Just enough so that people know that the setting isn't forgotten.