[poll] OOC/DM points

[Graf]

Please read the body of the post for examples.

Conceptually this is quite a complex situation (and also extremely hotly debated).

Before you vote please consider reading the discussion thread on the topic; it includes comments from facilitators (who's opinions diverge wildly), opinions and suggestions from judges of existing living settings and other insightful info.

[d]--[/d]

1 No points of any sort

Point awards
2 ... for DMing -- if voted for we will have a poll later that includes
Currently LEW and LEB reward DMs for running games. Some people feel that they should run games only for "love of the game"; others feel that it is an activity that benefits the community and should be recognized/rewarded in some explict fashion.

• 1 point per calendar month
• 1 point per xp-awarding encounter
• stonegod's proposal (link)
• some other way

3 ...for judging

• 1 per adventure taken over by a judge due to DM dropping out
• 1 per x time period as an active judge (month, or whatever)
• both
• other

3 ...assisting character approval *

There has been discussion of a "two tier" approval process for characters.
Step A. Volunteer checks sheet; helps get it formatted properly if necessary
Step B. Character judge looks at it
​

• 1 per 5 characters approved (judge or non-judge)

• something else

4 ...for a campaign log (judged by judges to be complete and informative)

• 1 for substantial contribution to the wiki, as determined by judges.

5 ...for doing other _____

If you vote for this please suggest what you mean
​

6 ... for every x period of time that passes in a game a player gets points for that character (time for xp)

• Per month played in an adventure
• awarded at DM's discretion for successful participation in a complete adventure
• or something else

Points (if we have them) can be spent to
7 ... improve your character's level

• 1 point buys X amount of xp per character level, no cap
• 1 point buys X amount of xp per character level, no more than 1/4 of a level per calendar month
• 1 point buys X amount of xp per character level, up to 1 level below current PC maximum
• 1 point buys X amount of xp per character level, up to average (median) PC character level
• some other scheme

8 ... buy magic items for your character

• up to two items max character level +2; 1 point is a magic item 3 levels below your character level/5 points is 1 item = to character level/10 points is CL +2 (or whatever)
• one item max per character (or 2 if character level > 5)
• items equal to character level in magic item gp (so if you're 5th level you can buy items equal to the gp value of 1 5th level item)
• some other scheme

9 ... buy access to rare material

this is to help prevent the flood of genasi effect -- you can spend x points to get access to that race/class​

10 .. allow for the creation and play of extra characters

Limits
11... Earning of points should be capped (no matter what you can only earn this much for your contributions)


12... Spending of points should be capped per character

This would keep characters from growing without being played; it would probably be limited by time
​

13 ...additional limits should be imposed to ensure that characters are not significantly more powerful than average

These would be additional limits that kick in when a character approaches the upper limit of the power curve.
limits to insure magic items and character levels do not outshine "normal" characters

​

We should have a separate system for
14 ... time for xp (conflicts with choice 6)

Time for xp would ensure that even players who are in slow moving games get something (xp) for their time.

There is discussion about whether it's better to use a one size fits all system, or to grant time for xp using a different system
​

 

[covaithe]

Ugh. No offense Graf, I think you're doing about as well as can be done with the poll system, but this just seems horribly confusing to me. My "vote" should be interpreted as follows: I think the best option would be no OOC points. However, I expect that others will probably vote for some OOC points, and that being the case, points for DMing only is acceptable. I think points should only be spent for xp or money, and that there should be a limit on points spent (not earned; how did that get on there??) per character per time period.

I cannot possibly see how anyone could guess that interpretation based on looking at what I actually voted for.

 

[covaithe]

Rereading this, I note that there's no option for spending points on gold. Would it be possible to take out the one for spending points on magic items and replace it with gold? Honestly, the idea of trying to balance buying magic items with points gives me a headache. The string of nonsense that I typed in as a hypothetical example of a scheme in the other thread was not meant as an actual proposal, just as an example of the kind of verbiage that such a proposal might be phrased in. If that makes any sense, which I suspect it doesn't.

 

[Atanatotatos]

I voted for points for judging. It came to my mind that it's the only thing not really likely to be "fun"...

 

[covaithe]

I voted for points for judging. It came to my mind that it's the only thing not really likely to be "fun"...

I do wish you would reconsider. Awarding points for judging is awfully close to judges awarding themselves points, since who would decide how many points a judge deserved but other judges? There's a real conflict of interest here, and I think a real possibility of causing resentment and distrust of the judges.

 

[garyh]

My votes endorse the following:

Please read the body of the post for examples.

[d]--[/d]

Point awards
2 ... for DMing

I didn't see my "Points per X Percent of PC level gained" suggestion on the list, but that'd be my vote.

3 ...for judging

• 1 per adventure taken over by a judge due to DM dropping out

I don't think Judges should get points for Judging. It's too much chance to look like favoritism. I *do* think a Judge taking over for a flaked DM should points for DMing, since they'd have gotten points for DMing their own game, and surely it's harder to take over someone elses game.

Points (if we have them) can be spent to
7 ... improve your character's level

• 1 point buys X amount of xp per character level, no cap

• 
  
  I don't see the need for a cap.
  
  

  9 ... buy access to rare material

  this is to help prevent the flood of genasi effect -- you can spend x points to get access to that race/class​

  
  I'm pointing out that I did NOT vote for this because I don't think it's fair to only let a certain segment of the population play these alternate options. Using points for XP is something someone with no points can make up for with play time, so I don't have a problem with that. There's nothing a point-less person can ever do to change their human into an orc.
  
  

  10 .. allow for the creation and play of extra characters

  
  Another no vote here, as I think limiting extra PC's to DM's (which is essentially what this would do) is also unfair and likely to stifle growth.
  
  

  [/INDENT] We should have a separate system for
  14 ... time for xp (conflicts with choice 6)
  
  

  Time for xp would ensure that even players who are in slow moving games get something (xp) for their time.
  
  There is discussion about whether it's better to use a one size fits all system, or to grant time for xp using a different system
  ​

  
  I'm okay with time for XP, but we'd need to figure out a formula.

 

[stonegod]

I do wish you would reconsider. Awarding points for judging is awfully close to judges awarding themselves points, since who would decide how many points a judge deserved but other judges? There's a real conflict of interest here, and I think a real possibility of causing resentment and distrust of the judges.

QFT: Judges getting any sort of reward for being judges reeks of a lack of impartiality.

I don't think Judges should get points for Judging. It's too much chance to look like favoritism. I *do* think a Judge taking over for a flaked DM should points for DMing, since they'd have gotten points for DMing their own game, and surely it's harder to take over someone elses game.

That is a different case (they are DMs in that case, not judges). But to be clear: A Judge that takes over a game gets DM points for that game.

 

[Graf]

I actually tend to agree with Ata; we should reward people who do annoying jobs nobody wants to do.

If the community votes on it (which they will) then I don't see how it "reeks of impartiality". Something simple like "active judge gets 1 per month" seems fine (assuming your average DM gets 2-3 a month).

I know covaithe had an option "judges just give points to themselves whenever they want". I think that's silly borderline insulting. I mean... the system will be voted on. It's not like we say "points for judging" and then the next thing that happens is "judges get 1000 points and have 20th level characters". We have a vote and then decide. Just like we have with every other thing.

And if we try to change the system later? Vote again.

They -don't- have to get as many as DMs, but I think judges deserve something.

[d]--[/d]

>...t this just seems horribly confusing to me. My "vote"
> should be interpreted as follows: I think the best option
> would be no OOC points.
So then that's your vote.
You've voted for that and against everything else.

> However, I expect that others will probably vote for some
> OOC points, and that being the case, points for DMing only
> is acceptable.
I'm not sure thatI agree that the voting is corrupted because you can't vote against something twice.

Or you want to vote in half incriments? Like 1 for against, .5 for DM points, and 0 for other options?

I mean... I'm not really tracking the problem. Everybody gets a vote, we look at the numbers and sort it out.

It's early days. You've posted a lot about how bad it'll be, you're influential, people listen to you. You've got a reasonably good chance of convincing people to stick with a low/no point system. And there will be more votes in the future and each one will include many opportunities to vote to limit the system.

It's the sign that we've got a good compromise when no-one is happy...

[d]--[/d]

> I note that there's no option for spending points on gold.
I have given a lot of thought to the idea of gold and I've come to the same conclusion that WotC has.

We're basically going to ignore it.

How do characters survive day to day? Do they eat? Have jobs? This is all roleplaying fodder. If you hand out gp players will live on the street and hunt rats to save up for that +1 sword.

WotC focuses on magic items and magic item balance and I think we should stick with that.

> Would it be possible to take out the one for spending
> points on magic items and replace it with gold? Honestly,
> the idea of trying to balance buying magic items with
> points gives me a headache.

...if you do then you should beleive that gold would make everything about an order of magnitude worse.

For starters...
Magic items in 4e are very very rigorously defined. You get certain +s at certain levels.
All items of the same level cost the same amount of gold.

"Turning it into gold" would
1. Allow someone to turn a couple of 3rd or 4th level items into one (potentially destabilizing) 9th level item.
2. Encourage the proliferation of consumables. Not so many in the PhB, but even so... At some point we may allow in more (see new alchemy rules), and then we'll start to see power spikes...

The amount of magic items you are supposed to have are proscribed by level.
Tresasure distribution is now defined by "packages" (or packets? I forget).

We will also have "average # of magic items" "average level of magic items" "average # and level of all items per level"

I am strongly in favor to going to the source and focusing how limiting how points are spent on magic items directly.

My idea?
Provided that you have no more than 3 magic items

• Levels 2-4 you may buy one item with OOC points up to your character level.
• 4-10 you may buy two items with OOC points up to your character level.

But anyway.... this is an application problem. -If- people vote to allow the spending on magic items -then- we take it up.

Actually, you've given me another idea....

 

[Graf]

I have given a lot of thought to the idea of gold and I've come to the same conclusion that WotC has.

We're basically going to ignore it.

How do characters survive day to day? Do they eat? Have jobs? This is all roleplaying fodder. If you hand out gp players will live on the street and hunt rats to save up for that +1 sword.

WotC focuses on magic items and magic item balance and I think we should stick with that.

I'm not saying, btw, we shouldn't vote on it.

I just think that "you have to count every single gp you get, and painstakingly link each amount of gp to the post that you received it in" (which is what you'd have to do or else it'd be chaos) isn't gonna be popular.

A player plunks down a few coins to have a minstrel sing a song, or buy a boat ride to Bacarte to trade with a pirate? It's rp.

I expect that we'll agree that gp that's handed out in adventures will be understood to be "liquid assets" (i.e. spent on equipment) and that you're character's actual wealth will be somewhat fluid.

That's my thinking anyway.

 

[covaithe]

I just think that "you have to count every single gp you get, and painstakingly link each amount of gp to the post that you received it in" (which is what you'd have to do or else it'd be chaos) isn't gonna be popular.

A player plunks down a few coins to have a minstrel sing a song, or buy a boat ride to Bacarte to trade with a pirate? It's rp.

I expect that we'll agree that gp that's handed out in adventures will be understood to be "liquid assets" (i.e. spent on equipment) and that you're character's actual wealth will be somewhat fluid.

That's my thinking anyway.

Hmm, that's a new idea to me. I've always done exactly what you describe: keep a running total with links to the posts in which gold changes hands. But it's an idea I'll have to think about. I'm not quite as convinced as you are that gold is old and busted and magic items are the new hotness. If nothing else, we will surely end up with players wanting to craft their own magic items, which takes gold, which means you need to keep an eye on how much gold you have.