Pounce

[Hypersmurf]

When a creature with the Pounce ability can only take a standard or move action (i.e. slowed) and makes a charge (only moving up to its speed, not twice as far, as per the charge special attack rules)... can it use the Pounce ability in order to make a full attack!?

Because the restricted Charge is a modification of the conditions under which you can take the Charge action, rather than a separate action you can only take under certain conditions, you are still considered to be Charging when you make a restricted Charge... and so Pounce still triggers.

It's the same concept as a slowed Psychic Warrior using Hustle, and thus gaining an extra move action in the round in which he is restricted to a standard or move action; the additional action circumvents the restriction. The Pouncer takes a standard action, but that standard action grants him an additional full-round action (specifically, the full attack action) after his standard action is over.

EDIT: Also, what happens, if the creature also has Improved Grab and Rake and manages to succeed on the Improved Grab grapple and thus can rake... does it get two additional Rake attacks then (after already performing two from Pounce before the Grapple)?

Well, the Rake description states "A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."

The general description of Improved Grab doesn't mention Rake. However, the Improved Grab text under several of the creatures with both abilities notes "If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake."

The way I reconcile this is to assume that "it establishes a hold and can rake" doesn't imply "and can rake immediately"; rather, it's reminding us that because the lion/tiger/whatever is now grappling, it can rake next round when it begins its turn grappling.

This reading means I don't need to worry about Pounce-Rake-Grab-Rake in the one round, because the second Rake doesn't apply unless the creature begins its turn grappling.

-Hyp.

 

[Thanee]

Because the restricted Charge is a modification of the conditions under which you can take the Charge action, rather than a separate action you can only take under certain conditions, you are still considered to be Charging when you make a restricted Charge... and so Pounce still triggers.

Yeah, that's what I thought as well, just wanted to be sure, that I got it right.

Well, the Rake description states "A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."

The way I reconcile this is to assume that "it establishes a hold and can rake" doesn't imply "and can rake immediately"; rather, it's reminding us that because the lion/tiger/whatever is now grappling, it can rake next round when it begins its turn grappling.

You are right, of course. Thanks!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

Don't forget to use Produce Flame for some extra fire damage.

 

[Thanee]

That spell is only (well mostly) available for druids.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Random Axe]

Remember, you get to follow a charge with a full-attack.

Strictly speaking, that gives you a bite on the charge (since charge, by itself, includes a single attack) followed up by your entire full-attack routine.

No, that means you follow up with a FULL attack instead of a single-attack, which is what you would normally get after a move (charge) action. So you do not get a bite on the charge and then a full-attack mauling.

And also, isn't it that the rakes only occur if the claw attacks themselves had scored a hit? If you miss with the claw attacks, there wouldn't be any rake-attacks.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No, that means you follow up with a FULL attack instead of a single-attack,

See the rest of the thread.

Succinctly, charge is a full-round action which involves movement and a single attack (at +2, as Hyp said). A full attack is a separate full-round action which involves multiple attacks (in this case, one attack from each natural weapon).

When you charge (move and make a single attack), you can follow it up with a full attack (one attack from each natural weapon).

Thus, bite at +2, full attack (including an additional bite) not at +2.

 

[mcgeedis]

See the rest of the thread.

Succinctly, charge is a full-round action which involves movement and a single attack (at +2, as Hyp said). A full attack is a separate full-round action which involves multiple attacks (in this case, one attack from each natural weapon).

When you charge (move and make a single attack), you can follow it up with a full attack (one attack from each natural weapon).

Thus, bite at +2, full attack (including an additional bite) not at +2.

Wait a minute... Are you telling me that my 5th level Druid Leopard would have attacks as below thanks to Pounce? Six attacks couples really good with the Touch of Golden Ice feat (BoED).

+8 Bite (+2 from charging, then followed by Pounce?)
+6 Bite
+4 Claw
+4 Claw
+6 Rake
+6 Rake

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, that means you follow up with a FULL attack instead of a single-attack, which is what you would normally get after a move (charge) action.

You don't normally get a single attack after a charge action. You normally get a single attack as part of your charge action.

Pounce allows you to follow your charge with a full attack. Following the charge, the singel attack has already happened, because the single attack occurs before the charge is finished.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Wait a minute... Are you telling me that my 5th level Druid Leopard would have attacks as below thanks to Pounce? Six attacks couples really good with the Touch of Golden Ice feat (BoED).

+8 Bite (+2 from charging, then followed by Pounce?)
+6 Bite
+4 Claw
+4 Claw
+6 Rake
+6 Rake

Yep.

And, on a related note, the Touch of Golden Ice is ridiculously overpowered.

 

[mcgeedis]

What is the damage bonus when you begin a round raking at the start of the Grapple? All of your strength bonus, or half of the strength bonus?