Power potions & Resonance

[Khisanth the Ancient]

In the 3.5 Ascension book, each divinity template lists "power potions" along with soul objects and epic spells as a source of divinity. Where are power potions defined?

A more general question - will the resonance-based methods of divinity (apertures, soul objects etc.) still exist in 4E? And will there be an Epic Ritual system equivalent to 3E Epic Spells?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Khisanth!

In the 3.5 Ascension book, each divinity template lists "power potions" along with soul objects and epic spells as a source of divinity. Where are power potions defined?

They aren't, not yet at least. In a nutshell, Power Potions are temporary divinity boosting method.

A more general question - will the resonance-based methods of divinity (apertures, soul objects etc.) still exist in 4E?

Probably. I'm a bit concerned with exactly how to use quintessence in 4E. 4E has moved away from the model where you expend inherent power permanently (such as XP). So the Worship Points System/Event System will probably show up as an alternate system rather than 'core'.

And will there be an Epic Ritual system equivalent to 3E Epic Spells?

Yes. I have already laid out how powerful these Rituals will be and to be honest its more of an area thing rather than a power thing. Power is relative in 4E, hit points mean different things at different levels, thats why many damages have a seperate listing for different tiers.

 

[paradox42]

Probably. I'm a bit concerned with exactly how to use quintessence in 4E. 4E has moved away from the model where you expend inherent power permanently (such as XP). So the Worship Points System/Event System will probably show up as an alternate system rather than 'core'.

On this topic, I'd like to state that I personally was always rubbed the wrong way by the notion that Quintessence (or QP for short, as my players like to say) never regenerates. This is probably because the old Primal Order system, which was the best option for PC godhood in D&D before UK came along, postulated that godhood came from 'Primal Energy' which has both a temporary component and a permanent one. For most divine effects, such as answering prayers or (in IH parlance) powering one's own daily Wishes, one spends the temporary Primal. Only the really important stuff like creating avatars, new races, or whole planes of existence, require you to spend permanent Primal.

So coming from that system, I had always expected to find that QP would have some sort of regenerative component, and the discovery that in UK's view it didn't, was rather jarring. For 4E, I'd suggest starting with the notion of regenerative Quintessence and seeing where that takes you.

On the topic of Power Potions, I'll say this: long before the IH came along, I found myself with a need to define rules for creating major artifacts in-game, and specifically coming up with a method for PCs to craft items with powers based on EPIC spells rather than just the first 9 levels as the base rules do. So for my game, the fact that UK gave us Epic spell seeds (complete with DCs) that happen to grant godhood, means that I already have rules in place to allow creation of potions or other items that duplicate those effects. If you like, I'll share the Craft Major Artifact rules here in the forum so other Dms can try them out. They've worked well for my game, but as many of you know, my game skews toward the high end of the power curve anyway.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya paradox42 mate!

On this topic, I'd like to state that I personally was always rubbed the wrong way by the notion that Quintessence (or QP for short, as my players like to say) never regenerates. This is probably because the old Primal Order system, which was the best option for PC godhood in D&D before UK came along, postulated that godhood came from 'Primal Energy' which has both a temporary component and a permanent one. For most divine effects, such as answering prayers or (in IH parlance) powering one's own daily Wishes, one spends the temporary Primal. Only the really important stuff like creating avatars, new races, or whole planes of existence, require you to spend permanent Primal.

I'm not a big fan of the idea characters should be able to create something from nothing. Sounds great if you are a player of course, but its a Pandora's Box if you are a DM.

So coming from that system, I had always expected to find that QP would have some sort of regenerative component, and the discovery that in UK's view it didn't, was rather jarring. For 4E, I'd suggest starting with the notion of regenerative Quintessence and seeing where that takes you.

I'm not sure if that will be necessary for 4E.

In 4E quintessence could be seen as EXP for characters above 30th. Rather than something in tandem with EXP.

So since in 4E you never expend EXP, there won't necessarily be a reason for the subtraction of Quintessence (except arguably where you are using the Glory model and your worshippers are being wiped out).

The immortal powers from levels 31+ will be intrinsic to the classes and portfolios, rather than templates which add to the classes themselves (as per 3E).

On the topic of Power Potions, I'll say this: long before the IH came along, I found myself with a need to define rules for creating major artifacts in-game, and specifically coming up with a method for PCs to craft items with powers based on EPIC spells rather than just the first 9 levels as the base rules do. So for my game, the fact that UK gave us Epic spell seeds (complete with DCs) that happen to grant godhood, means that I already have rules in place to allow creation of potions or other items that duplicate those effects. If you like, I'll share the Craft Major Artifact rules here in the forum so other Dms can try them out. They've worked well for my game, but as many of you know, my game skews toward the high end of the power curve anyway.

The Epic DCs for Temporary Divivinity should be helpful for determining the value of Power Potions. If you ahve already done the math I am sure that would be useful. Thanks.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Barring a future ruling, I'd treat power potions as granting the appropriate divine template for 20 hours (as per temporary divine ascension epic spell), but not the portfolio templates (due to lack of time for a portfolio trial) - is this what you had in mind?

Hey Khisanth!
Yes. I have already laid out how powerful these Rituals will be and to be honest its more of an area thing rather than a power thing. Power is relative in 4E, hit points mean different things at different levels, thats why many damages have a seperate listing for different tiers.

Awesome, I really liked the idea of Epic Spells (though the implementation was imperfect). What book will that be in?

 

[paradox42]

I'm not a big fan of the idea characters should be able to create something from nothing. Sounds great if you are a player of course, but its a Pandora's Box if you are a DM.

So what do you do about the Creation series of spells? Particularly the 9th-level one, True Creation, which creates pretty much anything? Admittedly, the caster's supposed to pay XP for creating anything valuable, but even so- stuff like food, water, ordinary soil... trivial. One could create a whole world with that, done long enough- all it takes is patience.

And anyway, the way it worked was that temporary Primal was gained on a daily basis, and as a percentage of your permanent pool. So basically it was similar to another spell-points system. If you reduced the size of the permanent pool, that would likewise reduce the amount of temporary Primal you had in following days, though the system also postulates that you can sort of "push" your temp stuff back into the main pool to eventually grow it. They even had tables in the book showing examples of deities using this mechanism over years, decades, or centuries, and how big they get as a result.

The Epic DCs for Temporary Divivinity should be helpful for determining the value of Power Potions. If you ahve already done the math I am sure that would be useful. Thanks.

That is essentially what I did actually- I reverse-engineered the Epic Spells system and tried to relate it back to the system for costing magic items on spell level. Items based on the Fortify Seed are probably a bit too cheap, but since people using the SRD Epic Spells system have long complained that the Fortify Seed is itself too cheap, I'd like to think that isn't a strike against the system I came up with. Anyway, the best thing is to just put it out there and let people draw their own conclusions for what works best in their own games.

I'm going to cut out most of the text I had written up for this, since my own game has several special rules changes regarding creation of Epic items; the relevant section for this thread is the costing of Epic spells. The text for my system doesn't mention it, but it assumes that the usual rule for "Epic items cost x10" still applies here- so don't forget to multiply the final cost for any artifact you come up with using this system by 10, before using it in game. I've also slightly reformatted the text to make it easier to read, and call out important points with emphasis (such as the fact that I based everything on limiting the number of uses per day of any Epic effect put into an item).

The cost of an Epic spell or power is based on the Spellcraft (or Psicraft) check necessary to cast/manifest it; each daily use of an Epic spell costs its "spell category base price" (for instance, for a use-activated spell with 50 charges, 1000 gp) × the DC. This cost is not modified by the artifact's caster level (since Epic spells and powers do not have level-dependent variables), but it is modified by mitigating factors of casting/manifesting the spell/power. An artifact with only a single use of any spell or power is destroyed when that spell or power is used, just as a potion is, despite being otherwise indestructible (see below). An artifact with 50 charges is not destroyed when those charges are used up, but instead recharges itself to the full 50 charges one year after the first charge was used (and remains as indestructible as a standard artifact until then).

An XP cost contributes a further 5 gp/XP just like normal spells and powers do.

If the spell or power requires multiple casters, then add the spell slots contributed times the artifact's caster level (for instance, an epic spell requiring four spellcasters to each contribute a 7th-level spell slot would add cost equivalent to a 28th-level spell at the artifact's caster level- even if that caster level is lower than 56th).

Finally, backlash damage costs an additional "base price" × the number of damage dice dealt.

Thus, an artifact containing the Hellball Epic spell (50 charges [==half base price] and use-activated [==2,000 gp base price], final base price 1,000 gp) costs 102,000 gp per daily use of Hellball it allows (Spellcraft DC of 90 = 90,000 gp, 400 XP cost = 2,000 gp, 10d6 backlash damage = 10,000 gp). Note that the item's caster level is irrelevant to this ability's cost, though it must be at least 21st since it is a Major Artifact. Also, this item loses its ability to cast Hellball for the year after 50 uses, though it only allows one charge per 102,000 gp in the base price to be used per day (and will keep any other abilities it has after the Hellball charges are used up, and will regain the 50 Hellball charges one year after the first one was used).

A caster-level 30 artifact containing the Verdigris Tsunami Epic spell (standard use-activation [==2,000 gp], no charge limit, base price 2,000 gp) costs 5,430,000 gp per daily use of the spell (Spellcraft DC 170 = 340,000 gp, 10,000 XP cost = 50,000 gp, 14 casters contributing 6th-level slots = 5,040,000 gp [14 casters × 6 levels × 30 caster levels × 2,000 gp base price]).

Finally, a single-use "gun" artifact (single-use, use-activated [==base price 50 gp], no space limitation [==multiply base cost by 2], final base price 100 gp) containing the Vengeful Gaze of God Epic spell has a base price of 61,900 gp (Spellcraft DC 419 = 41,900 gp, 200d6 backlash damage = 20,000 gp). It is destroyed after being used, though whatever it hits is likely to be as well given the 305d6 damage it takes.

Hopefully that proves useful to people.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Khisanth dude!

Barring a future ruling, I'd treat power potions as granting the appropriate divine template for 20 hours (as per temporary divine ascension epic spell), but not the portfolio templates (due to lack of time for a portfolio trial) - is this what you had in mind?

Yes, although remember that its possible for existing deities to use power potions too. In such cases they would get their Portfolios increased...albeit temporarily.

Awesome, I really liked the idea of Epic Spells (though the implementation was imperfect). What book will that be in?

Whatever form the first non-monster book takes. So not the Vampire Bestiary, the one after that.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya paradox mate!

So what do you do about the Creation series of spells? Particularly the 9th-level one, True Creation, which creates pretty much anything? Admittedly, the caster's supposed to pay XP for creating anything valuable, but even so- stuff like food, water, ordinary soil... trivial. One could create a whole world with that, done long enough- all it takes is patience.

If its all mundane stuff I'd just leave it...added to which its 3rd level so I don't have to worry about it any longer.

And anyway, the way it worked was that temporary Primal was gained on a daily basis, and as a percentage of your permanent pool. So basically it was similar to another spell-points system. If you reduced the size of the permanent pool, that would likewise reduce the amount of temporary Primal you had in following days, though the system also postulates that you can sort of "push" your temp stuff back into the main pool to eventually grow it. They even had tables in the book showing examples of deities using this mechanism over years, decades, or centuries, and how big they get as a result.

I remember that. Seemed like a little bit more book-keeping than you would ideally want, though I suppose if you had gotten to that point you probably weren't too fussed about a little more book-keeping.

I am not sure if people want a fluid model of power (as in one that can wax and wane) for 4E, but its something I'll retain as an option. But I can see some potential problems if you have a party with multiple characters all of disparate levels.

Not so bad if you are only gaming one or two PCs, but if circumstances drop one character down a few levels (from worshipper erosion) then it could unbalance the party too much. Then again, maybe I am worrying about that more than I need to - 4E is pretty robust, especially within about 4-5 levels.

That is essentially what I did actually- I reverse-engineered the Epic Spells system and tried to relate it back to the system for costing magic items on spell level. Items based on the Fortify Seed are probably a bit too cheap, but since people using the SRD Epic Spells system have long complained that the Fortify Seed is itself too cheap, I'd like to think that isn't a strike against the system I came up with. Anyway, the best thing is to just put it out there and let people draw their own conclusions for what works best in their own games.

I suppose.

I'm going to cut out most of the text I had written up for this, since my own game has several special rules changes regarding creation of Epic items; the relevant section for this thread is the costing of Epic spells. The text for my system doesn't mention it, but it assumes that the usual rule for "Epic items cost x10" still applies here- so don't forget to multiply the final cost for any artifact you come up with using this system by 10, before using it in game. I've also slightly reformatted the text to make it easier to read, and call out important points with emphasis (such as the fact that I based everything on limiting the number of uses per day of any Epic effect put into an item).

Hopefully that proves useful to people.

Thanks for sharing.