PROBLEM with search and spot! HELP!

[RObiN-HoOD]

In my party, which I DM, we have a serious problem regarding the Spot and Search skills.

Two of the players, which are also DMs and experienced players, believe the fact that they have to use the Spot skill to “NOTICE” something hiding, for example in the night when a PC is at guard protecting and watching the sleeping PCs. That’s ok. I roll spot and hide skills check to see what’s going on. Assuming that they fail the spot check and they don’t see a monster hiding, they claim that they can use the Search skill to “actively” search (as it is mentioned in the search skill description), not just notice (as stated in spot skill description) if someone is hiding.

I believe this is wrong, not to mention overruling. This is like getting 2 chances on finding someone and in particular with two different rankings (one from spot and one from search).

Am I right or wrong to think that only Spot check counts as apposed to hide and nothing else?

HELP!!!

 

[Zhure]

Sure, you could Search for a hidden monster, if you had some reason to do so, other than the metagame logic of having just failed a Spot check.

Personally, I handle Spot as a passive ability and Search as an active ability. This clearly delineates the two and they don't ever really go together.

Hope that helps,
Greg

edit- "Check: The character generally must be within 10 feet of the object or surface to be searched. It takes 1 round to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side; doing so is a full-round action."

This pretty much precludes using Search except against nearly adjacent hidden targets.

 

[RObiN-HoOD]

But the search skill clearly states:
"The Spot skill let you notice something , such as a hiding rogue."

then it continues:
"The Search skill lets a character discern some small detail or irregularity through active effort."

Ok, let's say that you can do it ... let's move on ...

"Check: The character generally must be within 10 feet of the object or surface to be searched. It takes 1 round to search a 5-foot-by-5-foot area or a volume of goods 5 feet on a side; doing so is a full-round action."

The PC is not an object, unless the enemy pretends to be a statue or something like that.
So if someone is hiding behind a tree or in the shadow what can a PC do? Search the tree just to see IF there is something behind it without reason, because he has already failed that spot check, remember? or would he starts searching the "shadows" just to see if something is in there, again with no reason?

This is not reasonable.

And even if this is true, if there is really someone there hiding, when the PC gets close and be attacked should he be flat-footed?

 

[Crothian]

You can start having them roll spot checks even when there is nothing to see. THen the search and find nothing. Sure it wastes time, but it shows them what they think is going to happen doesn't always. Secondly, search has to be done from up close. You have to be 10 feet away to search an area. Have them search and get ambushed.

However, I think this is what you need to tell them: "The Spot Skill lets you notice something, like a hiding rogue. The search skill lets a character discern some small detail or irrugularity through active effort." Direct quote from the book. I think it's obvious that if you fail your spot roill, you can't search out an enemy.

 

[StealthyMark]

Quote from the PHB, pg 73
"Search: You can find secret doors, simple traps, hidden compartments, amd other details not readily apparent. The Spot skill lets you notice something, such as a hiding rogue. The search skill lets a character discern some small detail or irregularity through active effort."
Quote from the PHB, pg 74
"Spot: Use this skill to notice bandits waiting in ambush, to see a rogue lurking in the shadows, or to see the giant centipede in the pile of trash."

Am I right or wrong to think that only Spot check counts as apposed to hide and nothing else?

You are absolutely right. To notice someone hiding, you use always the spot skill. If the hidden character moves, the "watchers" should recieve a (secret) Listen check vs Move Silently.
Spot checks should be rolled by the DM, to keep the players from metagaming.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I would let players Search for a foe they missed. Of course, this will open them up to ambushes and only allows one 5' square at a time, but hey - it's their call.

To those who would disallow it - what would you call carefuly looking over very small areas at a time in search of a person? Sure, it's not practical in combat situations, but perhaps the players are looking for a halfling smuggler, not a direct combatant.

For combat purposes, the players want to "actively" Spot as a full-round action. For pokinmg and prodding small areas to find anyone and anything hidden, they want Search.

 

[skunian]

We use the passive/active system as well. Anything that a PC might notice from casual observation uses Spot, this includes hidden creatures, or anything else a PC may notice is out of place. Anytime that a PC is activley searching fo something, also including hidden creatures/objects or clues uses search. I let my players roll their own spot checks, one thing I never liked to do is roll things for my PC's and if I ever had a problem with metagame knowledge I'd simply explain why the PC couldn't or wouldn't do what they player was trying to hav them do and it's never been an issue.

Edit for Spelling.

 

[Crothian]

If they are hiding, you need a spot roll. It's that simple. I think spot can be active. If you look through a crowd of people in the marketplace for your contact that is a spot roll, not a search roll. Now, if you think someone is hiding and you don't spot them, you can use search to look for clues like tracks.

 

[Umbran]

I think a hiding monster would be revealed by a seach check - I think he counts at least as a "small detail or irregularity". If you are going over a small area with a fine toothed comb, I think you'd find the bugbear standing in it.

However, if you were on watch at night, would you actually spend all your time actively searching? No. Search focuses too much attention on a single area at a time - only a 5' square per round- leaving you vulnerable to ambush from other directions.

The characters do not know they've failed a spot check, so they have no particular reason to search. If they insist on using meta-game knowledge, there are a couple simple solutions. One is to ask for various "passive" checks often, but have most of them be for nothing. Another is to sit down before the game start and roll a d20 a whole bunch of times, and write down the results. When a secret roll is required you refer to the list. If they don't see you rolling a die, they won't know they've failed a check.

 

[Henrix]

Oh, if they insist, just ask them what 5' square they are searching, or roll a die to see where they are at the moment the enemies appear.
And give them a -10 circumstance penalty to their spot checks, as they are obviously focussing their attention on just a small patch at a time.