Proposal: Minotaur - MM, (Dragon,) PH3 - which one(s) allow for L4W

Dekana

Explorer
I think the assumption is that you should be able to play using just the core books, including the use of all character options therein. So I can't play a sorcerer unless I have PHB2, but I should be able to play a minotaur since it's in the MM. Striking the MM version of the minotaur would be taking away core options.

However, I think altering the MM races is something we can live with. I generally assumed that the monstrous races in MM were temporary versions until their full writeups in later books. If a 4th edition Races of the Dragon comes out someday and changes my kobold, even for the worse, I'd be fine with adjusting.

Edit: On a different note, the character builder is free for the first few levels, isn't it? I don't see why we can't require the use of it if someone wants to play a minotaur but doesn't have PHB3; the builder will have the racial stats.
 
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garyh

First Post
Edit: On a different note, the character builder is free for the first few levels, isn't it? I don't see why we can't require the use of it if someone wants to play a minotaur but doesn't have PHB3; the builder will have the racial stats.

The demo Character Builder data is frozen at... sometime last year, maybe just after PHB2 came out? Not sure since I'm a DDI subscriber. But in any case, the demo builder would have the MM minotaur, or the Dragon minotaur if it had already been released. The PHB3 minotaur will not be added to the demo of the CB.
 

evilbob

Explorer
I think the assumption is that you should be able to play using just the core books...
That's just it: "everything is core." So the Dragon magazine that you have to pay to access that changed the way the minotaur works? Core. That is the WotC 4.0 design philosophy.

It's moot now but I agree this will probably come up again.
 

renau1g

First Post
Well then there will be 3 versions of Core minotaurs in a few weeks ;) as there has been no errata removing the minotaur from the MM as a playable race.
 

evilbob

Explorer
Well then there will be 3 versions of Core minotaurs in a few weeks ;) as there has been no errata removing the minotaur from the MM as a playable race.
Heh, believe me, I understand/sympathize/agree. I am just putting forth the points that I have learned from other much more heated debates about this same subject:
- there's only 1 "Core" version (whichever is most recent - you can check by opening the Character Builder/Compendium)
- there is no need for errata (because it has been superseded by other sources as a PC race, but not as a monster race)

Again, not to say you can't play it any way you want: and the judges have already decided to do so.
 

Velmont

First Post
I would be in favor of only 1 Minotaur race, and let's keep a grandfather rules. People who had an earlier version can keep them. That way, we keep it simple. I agree that an errata is to correct a typo, or an effect, but I don't expect to see an errata for to tells us to use only the PHB3 version. I think it is implicit.

Also, all reviewers and DM will have an headache with minotaurs characters, because they will have to watch over which version they have. We open the door to mistakes.

Why make it simple when you can make it complicated?
 

renau1g

First Post
Yeah this is certainly less contentious than bugbear would/will be. There are way more active bugs around, although as gary pointed out they could easily be mechanically changed to half-orcs, but keep the bugbear "skins"
 

renau1g

First Post
So now we need some rationale for the "short armed" minotaurs as to why they lack the ability to wield oversized weapons, but have some other nifty tricks.

Proposed Fluff:

Sages say that long ago on the island of Mistwatch was part of the Proximate Isles, a land that had often been at odds with Daunton and Bacarte. The island was one of truly monstrous creatures, large minotaur marauders sailed from the port-o-call of Asteron, they were accompanied by medusa archers and even rumours of a powerful multi-headed creature they kept in the bowels of the ship to be released if they ever ran into difficult sea battles. The Hydra, as they called it, was more a force of nature and the minotaurs never released the beast for they were afraid of it. For years they preyed upon the vessels sailing the Shifting Seas, the skulls of humans, goblinoids, and other humanoids hung from their ships.

As happens in the Shifting Seas, the island begun to move, slightly at first, but soon the pirate lords sailing out of the port couldn't locate any ships in any direction. After returning home dejected the islands became shrouded in mist, the vapours covered the island's exterior forming an almost impenetrable wall that those who sailed into never returned from. The vessel carrying The Hydra was among those and after they didn't return, the citizens of Mistwatch stayed on the land, for if that beast was out there, it was too dangerous.

After some years of relative peace while they attempted to adjust to the new situation, fully expecting the phenomena to be short lived and they could return to their plundering ways soon. Unfortunately for them it didn't happen and soon the various tribes of the islands began turning on each other. After all, farming wasn't amongst their skills, they were warriors, amongst the strongest in the Isles.

The warriors fought amongst themselves, slaying many. The Guardian tribe was a powerful group of minotaurs on the island and their leader, Asheron, realized that the fighting was likely to consume them all. He lead his people to a remote part of the island, away from the conflagration that was consuming it. The tribe was declared a traitor to the Horned King by the other minotaurs. They traveled high in the Sentinal Peaks and found a small valley that was shielded on all sides by the mountains.

Asheron was affected by a dream that night, he was trapped in a massive labyrinth of Mireva. After running around like a wild beast he realized that once he calmed down and gathered his wits and calmed his emotions he was able to reflect on his choices of paths and correct his mistakes. When he focused he was able to find his way out of the maze and he awoke.

Asheron spoke his dream before the clan. He explained that through contemplation, vigilance, and reflection, minotaurs could escape the bondage of demon lords and become a free people with the power to make their own choices.

Over the course of many years they've honed this philosophy and turned away from their barbaric past and in the recent months, this island has returned from the mists into the Near Lands, perhaps a curse of the gods was lifted or perhaps just fortuitous chance, but whatever the reason the new, more contemplative "short armed" minotaurs have returned to the Isles
 



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