Proposal:Sacrifice to Caiphon Feat - Repeal the houserule

[Oni]

I was originally in favor of allowing Sacrifice to Caiphon and still am.

It doesn't bust up economy of action. It doesn't make a good result better like most feats. It mitigates the worst possible outcome (missing all targets), at an increasingly high cost (based on the level of the power). I don't feel compelled to take it.

 

[Atanatotatos]

It is infact the type of feat that becomes worse the more you optimize your character, a bit like hammer rhytm or scimitar dance (although those are much much better) so yeah, it's nothing to worry about.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

It is infact the type of feat that becomes worse the more you optimize your character, a bit like hammer rhytm or scimitar dance (although those are much much better) so yeah, it's nothing to worry about.

Good point bringing up scimitar dance and hammer rhythm. There is still the point that those feats are paragon level and Sacrifice is heroic, but it is a good parallel to draw.

After the "things to nerf" thread, I have to admit that I'm beginning to be inclined to un-nerf this feat. When comparing it to something like Rain of Blows or some of the other particularly powerful options out there, I don't think Sacrifice to Caiphon is that bad.

One thing I think I'd like the feat to say is "when you attack with a warlock encounter power" instead of just any encounter power, but I think I could be convinced to overlook that. The biggest cheese I can think of (at least for the near future) is using it with Rain of Blows, but being able to is unlikely, since RoB is a multi-attack power.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

I'm fine with un-nerfing this.

I just want to point out that the reason this feat was scrutinized more than, say, Rain of Blows is that I think there was a feeling that stuff in the hardcovers was more strongly playtested by Wizards than stuff in Dragon, so the Dragon magazine stuff might not be as well balanced. But I'm starting to not believe that as much.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

I'm fine with un-nerfing this.

I just want to point out that the reason this feat was scrutinized more than, say, Rain of Blows is that I think there was a feeling that stuff in the hardcovers was more strongly playtested by Wizards than stuff in Dragon, so the Dragon magazine stuff might not be as well balanced. But I'm starting to not believe that as much.

Yeah, I think I'm with you on that sentiment. It's probably a safe bet that there's less playtesting going on as time goes on, as well.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

So, the main two concerns with Sacrifice to Caiphon were:

1. It gives Warlocks a way to get "reliable-like" powers that other classes don't have. Why can't my fighter do that?

2. Worry that someone will find a killer power that it really shouldn't be possible to recover this way.

For #1, I don't think it's really a problem. All the other classes have their own schtick, and while this is a good ability, other classes have their own good abilities that warlocks don't get. Besides, since it doesn't specify Warlock powers, other classes can always multiclass into Warlock and select this feat (same ability for a cost of 2 feats rather than 1).

For #2, if anyone finds a specific combo that this breaks, we can propose banning that particular combo when it becomes a problem.

So I vote YES to removing the house rule on Sacrifice to Caiphon.

 

[Atanatotatos]

I was going to vote "yes" here but I think it'd be more appropriate if it applied to warlock powers only. If no-one cares about that I'll vote yes anyway since it's not a huge concern, but I thought I'd ask...

 

[Lord Sessadore]

I was going to vote "yes" here but I think it'd be more appropriate if it applied to warlock powers only. If no-one cares about that I'll vote yes anyway since it's not a huge concern, but I thought I'd ask...

I like this for the RP aspect - it doesn't make as much sense to me that you could sacrifice yourself to Caiphon to get another try with a martial power, for example - but I'm sort of with you. If no one cares, I'm fine with letting it pass as-is.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

I think it works for the RP aspect: Caiphon is able to warp space and time in some way to put you back in a position to use your power, whatever it is. The important thing is that you need to already be pledged to it for it to do this for you, so you have to be a warlock, not necessarily using a warlock power.

 

[renau1g]

And I can't think of a warlock build that uses STR as it's main ability to gain any major benefit from the RoB power.