Psion power balance questions

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Guess your Coke was not Burrowing.

Or, maybe his monitor is transdimensional ...

 

[helium3]

*chuckle*

 

[Videssian]

(Great. Now there's Coke sprayed all over my monitor. Warn me next time, KarinsDad!

Heh!

Except that I seem to vaguely remember that gaze attacks DO exist on the astral.. (don't recall if that's also the case on the Ethereal).. this when the medusa/basilisk/etc. is only physically on the prime.

 

[Nail]

Guess your Coke was not Burrowing.

Thankfully => "no", given that my monitor still works.

KarinsDad, be thankful Gaze attacks don't work thru the dimension of cyberspace.....

 

[KarinsDad]

Thankfully => "no", given that my monitor still works.

KarinsDad, be thankful Gaze attacks don't work thru the dimension of cyberspace.....

It doesn't matter. I'm a psion. I always make my save.

 

[IanB]

Methodology nitpick with the summons/astral construct comparison:

Since the AC is by definition the 'best' creature to summon on the AC "list" it really only makes sense to compare it directly to the 'best' melee bruisers on the summon monster lists. In most cases I think that means comparing it to the elementals.

Taking the average hp/damage/armor class of a bunch of creatures with other special abilities that may or may not impact a given encounter doesn't seem very useful.

But compare just the raw combat stats, setting aside any special abilities beyond DR:

Elder Fire Elemental
Size H
AC 25
Speed 60
hp 204
Attacks +26/+26 (2d8+6 + 2d8 fire)
15' reach
DR 10/--

Elder Earth Elemental
Size H
AC 22
Speed 30
hp 228
Attacks +27/+27 (2d10+11/19-20 crit)
15' reach
DR 10/--

Elder Water Elemental
Size H
AC 23
Speed 30 / swim 120
hp 228
Attacks +25/+25 (2d10+9/19-20 crit)
15' reach
DR 10/--

Elder Air Elemental
Size H
AC 27
Speed fly 100
hp 204
Attacks +27/+27 (2d8+6)
15' reach
DR 10/--

9th level Astral Construct
Size H
AC 33
Speed 50
hp 144
Attacks +28/+28 (2d6+16)
15' reach
DR 15/magic

The construct has notably higher AC (note that it isn't high enough that, say, a rival summoned elemental would care too much), but pays for it with a very large HP deficit and a generally worse DR type. I think it looks balanced with the elementals as summons, and really, it doesn't matter how it stacks up to other summoning choices, if it isn't better than the best melee option in the other lists.

Now, possibly the comparison breaks down at lower spell levels, I didn't map it all out. Someone else can take the time to do that.

 

[Scion]

Note that even if one could prove that astral construct is better in every way than every single summon monster that still would not prove that astral construct is overpowered.

It also would not prove that summon monster is underpowered.

From my experience summon monsters are great for utility use (they have a ton of cool abilities) and to help other characters (summon them to pop traps or flank or whatever, being able to summon 5 and make it so that everyone is flanking and lots of aoos would be provoked to get out of the situation is pure gold) but very poor in straight combat except in special circumstances.

The astral construct also goes away sooner than the summon monster, which I'd imagine would matter now and then, especially at low levels.

It is a tough call. It all depends on what you want to compare with and then the resources that it takes whether or not it is balanced in use.

 

[Pielorinho]

From my experience summon monsters are great for utility use (they have a ton of cool abilities) and to help other characters (summon them to pop traps or flank or whatever, being able to summon 5 and make it so that everyone is flanking and lots of aoos would be provoked to get out of the situation is pure gold) but very poor in straight combat except in special circumstances.

What i"ve found, playing a druid:
-Summon Monster IV, with unicorns, means never having to prepare a cure serious wounds or cure critical wounds . The unicorns can provide superior healing outside of combat, and I can summon them spontaneously. (in combat I rely on a wand of cure moderates and a single Heal spell).
-Air elementals, with their whirlwind ability, are fantastic at taking out mooks. They just cha-cha-cha back and forth over the spots where the mooks are fighting (we've ruled that a mook only needs to make the reflex check once per round to prevent serious silliness), sucking the mooks up and out of the fight. They're also not too shabby against wizards, especially wizards with improved invisibility. When we fought intelligent spellcasting swarms of underwater worms, a whirlpooling water elemental rocked the house.
-Earth elementals, with their DR/everything and humongous HP, are just about indestructible.
-Arrowhawks are great for chasing down fleeing enemies.
-Djinns are fantastic for their ability to cast Wind Walk (you can summon them at seventh level, and you can also cast Wind Walk at Seventh Level, and theirs gets cast as a 20th-level spell). Just try not to notice that the Wind Walk expires as soon as the Summon spell expires --D'oh!

I occasionally summon other critters, especially if I feel like laying down some serious Animal Growth smackdowns; but these are the main ones I use.

Daniel

 

[Scion]

I've always been partial to a few lantern archons flying around casting aid on everyone and zapping away myself

They cant take much damage, but they are just so cool.

Edit: having a creature with a constant 'tongues' going is pretty nice as well actually.. if you dont speak the enemies language you can still know what they are shouting to one another.

 

[Videssian]

Note that even if one could prove that astral construct is better in every way than every single summon monster that still would not prove that astral construct is overpowered.

It also would not prove that summon monster is underpowered.

From my experience summon monsters are great for utility use (they have a ton of cool abilities) and to help other characters (summon them to pop traps or flank or whatever, being able to summon 5 and make it so that everyone is flanking and lots of aoos would be provoked to get out of the situation is pure gold) but very poor in straight combat except in special circumstances.

The astral construct also goes away sooner than the summon monster, which I'd imagine would matter now and then, especially at low levels.

It is a tough call. It all depends on what you want to compare with and then the resources that it takes whether or not it is balanced in use.

Another thing that seems to be overlooked in this thread is that the Astral Construct power only summons one creature.. a Summon Monster spell can summon multiples (of a slightly lower power).. there's times when you don't care so much about the strength of the summoned creatures and care more about their ability to divert the attention of a group of enemies.